Comparisons and advocacy

Yes Derek, I have to disagree as well. Beginning with v1.7 (or v1.8, I seem to recall) I quickly found that moving further away from core, i.e. adding more and more non-core plugins, was inviting certain disaster. OK, things have gotten a lot better, even if quality control seems patchy at times, but I am still nervous about using a lot of non-core plugins. The only non-core plugins I have installed, upon request, running at the moment are the PoodLL (Online and Feedback) and Progress Bar, for obvious reasons. (A number of Staff are using them, and so far none have complained about something not working- I hope they don't as Justin will get real busy helping me pull my chestnuts out the fire- I'm tellin' ya!)  

The point is that I have stuck pretty much with core only and found my time is not taken up with fixing problems. While newbies and non-Moodle users often complain initially about how complex Moodle is, once they get it, it becomes easy. (It is always good to be listening to teachers discuss pedagogy surrounding common classes rather than behaviour management of students they teach in common.) 

I have two issues with this though, one is that the interface sucks, dramatically, and why is core so large? A redesign of basic themes is still required, Moodle still has that Post-Nuke feel of the then Holy Grail of web design, the three column page. And, if Moodle had a smaller, bomb-proof core, with a tiered arrangement of plugins (e.g. general and highly recommended, recommended of limited use, and experimental say) then I can chose which plugins I want to use, instead of having someone in HQ tell me what I am including whether I want it or not. 

The decisions about what is "core" though needs to be refined a lot more, and it will take a much smarter person then I to make those decisions.   

I don't think anybody has said 'Moodle is unusable' in such a specific manner, and I certainly didn't. In regards to let's try out Moodle, I certainly am and that goes with Gnomio also also. Let's not forget that they are both moodles, so moodle is not in competition. I love moodle No argument there.

Yes as I said, I am trying out the moodles, but I'm also seriously using them with students and teachers. We can't pay for anything yet, because to do that we would need either funding from somewhere, or the students would have to pay up, so that we could pay our teachers, and possibly pay moodle partners or other experts. That's not going to happen for at least 6 months, because we are not a major university who can afford to pay for such costs. No funding, no money.

OK, David, Marcus and co, you are quite right,  Pretty well everybody says "Core Moodle is unuseable, you need plugins"  this is an overstatement.  I won't defend it.  Scratch it from the record.

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@David.  The study, Interesting, yes I had skimmed over the study, I was not sure if it was very conclusive in any areas, I did not know what the questions were from the report.  From memory, I did not think they were the right questions.  

@Marcus your comment 

"You are the first person I have heard say that core Moodle is unusable. Where I work we use none of the plugins you mention. One persons essential is another persons 'whatever' "

I only mentioned directly in my post two plugins (OU marker and Dialogue - officially recommended by Martin to solve the problem of sharing files with individuals) and obliquely one ATTO plugin.

Some questions for you:

1. Do you have any plugins in your install at all?
2. Do you have any problems for instance with the scroll of death, ATTO complaints from staff or video deployment?

When is Moodle not Moodle?

I've talked about this before on Moodle.org, but I can't locate the posts.  I not longer take things at face value now when people say "I like/don't like Moodle".  

1. 1. How do you work with the navigation problems? (we have our own block/format - I think they still do, and it is still in house)
   2. How do you cope with a LOT of student contact in big classes (own forum module - forumNG)
   3. Blogs, how are they?  (We have our own blog -  OUBlog)
   4. and so on . . .

So the question is was what they were using really Moodle?  When does a patched/hacked/plugged version become another beast?

Certificate

I will never use this in any possible scenario, but I know it is popular.  In actual, David's link bears this out.

My rationale for including the certificate in a "no guarantees" version of MoodleCloud is so people could test it out for themselves prior to getting their own 'real moodle'.  Not because I want it.  

I support some things in the tracker not because I need them but because they are best for Moodle INC as a whole.

Mark commented: 

"As the maintainer of the certificate module (and who also works at HQ) I have been asked if the certificate module should be installed on Moodlecloud and my answer has been a resounding 'no'. The module only becomes useful when you are able to gain access to the fileserver and edit the certificate types (or add your own) directly"  

I think the value lies in being able to check into a site (somewhere) as a student and as a teacher and see the certificate in action.  Or any plugin.  It is very rare that you are able to go to Moodle plugins and find out what you know, you need to get your hands dirty.  So: eventually you are going to need access to a dev version of Moodle.  I'm surprised at Mark's comment on light of the numerical facts: certificate is popular, but because you think it is not good enough now you say No (resoundingly) to it being available to work with.

I think from what you say it sounds like Moodle Cloud is erring on the side of caution.  Which is fair enough.

The purpose of Moodle Cloud.

I've just checked on this on the site, and it is sort of clear.  It says this:

We’ve targeted the system towards small users of Moodle: very small schools or companies, or lone teachers with a few classes, or just anyone who wants a Moodle to experiment with.
https://moodle.com/cloud/ 

I assumed it was just for "experimenting', but here it is to support teachers, but in a limited way.

@John, I take your point then.  You are looking for the best system to actually use, not just test out to see if you will use.  In which case, the answer is clear.

Plugins in general

I've been party to a lot of installs from scratch, or part of the specifications process.  It is very very rare that ever I can get to the end and say, no you will be fine with just Moodle core.

@Ken

You say "Yes Derek, I have to disagree as well. Beginning with v1.7 (or v1.8, I seem to recall) I quickly found that moving further away from core, i.e. adding more and more non-core plugins, was inviting certain disaster"

Seriously?  "Certain disaster"  ?  I think that was then, this is now.  And 'More and more'.  No, you just need a few pluigins usually.  And it is functionality needed first, then you look for the solution.

You say "but I am still nervous about using a lot of non-core plugins"

You are probably right to be nervous, no-one said "a lot" of plugins, just the ones where the tradeoffs (pain of a plugin vs functionality you get) actually is OK.  David M's push for 3.0 ready plugins has been great.  We are getting better and better with plugins I think.  (Off soap box now)

Just take some examples of pretty robust plugins, with high value statistically (ie by actual use, not just my hobbyhorse).  

• Want to give the SoD a big hit?  Install Course menu.  NO extra training needed, just a few emails each upgrade to the Course Menu Mother ship and on we go.
  
• Progress bar/Course Menu.  Nope, not need even to ask, they get upgraded.  Not much training needed.
  
• Attendance.  Ditto.
  

The actual reported useage is low in David's survey, and for that reason I think the survey is flawed.

I'd surmise the usage is not higher since many people do not know what they are missing.  IMO.

Again from Colin: Have two issues with this though, one is that the interface sucks, dramatically, and why is core so large? A redesign of basic themes is still required, Moodle still has that Post-Nuke feel of the then Holy Grail of web design, the three column page. And, if Moodle had a smaller, bomb-proof core, with a tiered arrangement of plugins (e.g. general and highly recommended, recommended of limited use, and experimental say) then I can chose which plugins I want to use, instead of having someone in HQ tell me what I am including whether I want it or not. 

I am not sure if these are rhetorical questions or not.  I think the core is pretty bomb proof.  I think we are seeing HQ move towards some consideration of more plugins (like as in the paper David quoted), but as yet no action, all talk, and discussions happening out of public arena - or in Moots (as we see in Davids post:  "Regarding MoodleCloud, Moodle is constantly reviewing the MoodleCloud service for refinements and improvements through 2016 but what that will be is still under review and exploration")  

But this is better than nothing.

In conclusion

If we are showcasing Moodle, my original comment is that it is better to have a good showcase, otherwise people will bet put off Moodle, not on.  Most people use plugins to some extent.  It's easy to knock Moodle if you have just core.  Every Moodle partner has their special flavours.

More than I meant to say.

-Derek

 From Spain?  How do you know?

-Derek