Comparisons and advocacy

Moodle/Canvas and comparing LMS systems (split from Transition from BB to Moodle)

 
Picture of Ken Task
Moodle/Canvas and comparing LMS systems (split from Transition from BB to Moodle)
Particularly helpful Moodlers

Now we're really getting off-topic ... sorry 'bout that ... but just a couple of things ...

Colin mentioned Canvas ... "Beter off looking at some of the newer tools, like Canvas. Set up a RoR directory and put Canvas onto the server, then work out how to convert from Canvas courses to Moodle, and Moodle courses to Canvas."

Not long ago 14 (think that was the number) entities of higher ed. moved from Moodle to Canvas (sorry, don't have link) but here's something interesting:

http://educhalk.org/blog/university-of-texas-lms-comparison-canvas-first-moodle-a-distant-last-place/

As far as 'designed for K12' ... actually, the web page for Canvas does have a Higher Ed. link.

http://www.instructure.com/

And am now wondering ... has Moodle really focused on higher ed alone now?

Don't look now, but something might be gaining [in some cases, passed] ... ;)

'spirit of thinkering', Ken

 
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Picture of dawn alderson
Re: Moodle/Canvas/Comparing LMS systems
 

Good morning,

indeedy do do...off topic, the utter shame of it Ken.  OK. An ad-hoc, off the cuff response from me.

It seems the fundamentals of choosing an LMS can be boiled down to a number of things:

1. Cost....open source is free if the institution can manage and oversee the stuff that needs doing...and I know those who know about LMSs will know exactly what I mean when I say stuff.  So, whether it is Canvas with its one off charge and yearly sub...or Moodle with  a partner....one would weigh up the costs compared with something out-of- the-box/maintenance and so on.

2. I find it baffling that someone/others would take the time to trial out a few LMSs only to then broadcast the least useful for their context....I am referring to the Texas write-up....it is just vitriol and smacks of a nasty little world eh. Especially when such claims are set within one context.....yawn yawn.

3.  It needs to be noted that Moodle has a number of markets-primary, secondary, HE, CPD, indpendent and so on.  It is one thing saying the code is dinosaur-natured...it is quite another when we consider security and privacy....HTML5-Canvas...CSS5...well whoop whoop.....most of the internet is now using that....invitation for a hack-fest?...I don't know.....but there are merits in sticking with PhP-and the various linkages with Java S and so on....well that is what I think anyway. 

Warning-I never set-out to be a geek.....am not one-I refuse to put that on my identity card...but I realise I may be sounding like one!

The beauty of Moodle:  those secondary schools/colleges that use Moodle....are often connected to a hub....with the local borough...and a whole borough's schools can be connected.....and there can be a lot of joined up practice....if HE uses Moodle too...then the transition for students in terms of accessible kit can be seamless, I know, have observed my daughter's use with Moodle....when she transferred to lower sixth form from her local school.....easy access...and straight in to her subject domains.....no worries about accessibility issues/skill-set and so on.

I am sure others can come up with other advantages of moodle....and for that reason...I do think there is still a need for a simple doc in response to the original poster's question in this thread...Have started the ball rolling with colleagues..if we get stuck and need an extra hand with it...I will shout here.

D        

(Edited by Mary Cooch  to edit title- original submission Sunday, 18 January 2015, 11:54 AM)

 
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Picture of dawn alderson
Re: Moodle/Canvas/Comparing LMS
 

Good idea.

(Edited by Mary Cooch  to edit title- original submission Sunday, 18 January 2015, 12:04 PM)

 
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Picture of Ken Task
Re: Moodle/Canvas/Comparing LMS
Particularly helpful Moodlers

Think I may have mis-communicated ... happens ... am not really advocating anyone switch to Canvas other.   Am suggesting that Moodle might need to take a gander at other similar packages ... including Google Classroom.

One of the common reasons given for dropping Moodle and using 'other' in my neck of the woods is simply 'it's gotten too difficult.'   Hear often, need something simple.   Also hear need mobile access and the ability to do videos/audios on X device.

Just sayin'!

Ken


(Edited by Mary Cooch to edit title - original submission Sunday, 18 January 2015, 5:16 PM)

 
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Ben talking on the phone beside a monitor
Re: Moodle/Canvas/Comparing LMS
Particularly helpful MoodlersTesters

I played with Classroom for an hour last week. It consists of a forum module and an assignment module. That's it. Well, and Google docs.

It is radically simple, but also underwhelming.

(Edited by Mary Cooch to edit title - original submission Sunday, 18 January 2015, 7:18 PM)

 
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Picture of dawn alderson
Re: Moodle/Canvas/Comparing LMS
 

Ben, I think when Ken says: Just sayin'!   What that means in my lingo...is wind the bobbin-up!  Am not going to rise to it.....monkey! tongueout 

(Edited by Mary Cooch  to edit title- original submission Sunday, 18 January 2015, 7:30 PM)

 
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Picture of Ken Task
Re: Moodle/Canvas/Comparing LMS
Particularly helpful Moodlers

Well, you said it ... 'simple' - which matches what I've been hearing from entities/ISD's/teachers that are saying what they need.  And, while I agree to some extent (too simple), there's more than meets the eye in assignment module.    When I first saw Moodle, it was somewhat underwhelming back then also (vr 1.4 I think).   It grew, however.

Google Classroom has just begun and they have been adding 'features' ... feedback from users ... many of whom appear to be K12.   Recently announced their app (iPhone/Android) for GC.  For schools that have 'gone Google' ... this is an extension of their Google Drive, web sites/pages (ISD/Teacher/Students) and their EMail.

Now, on the flip side ... Google has been known to pull the plug if offerings are not generating enough use or $'s.

Don't think it's a replacement for Moodle .. others have said that already but many might begin to explore usage where Moodle core/addons fall short of what is desired.

Bottom line: it's worth keeping an eye on.

'in the spirit of thinkering', Ken


(Edited by Mary Cooch  to edit title- original submission Sunday, 18 January 2015, 8:36 PM)

 
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Picture of dawn alderson
Re: Moodle/Canvas/Comparing LMS
 

as soon as I am convinced that there is an inkling of any well-informed pedagogical principles across the product-then I will raise my eyebrow and maybe show a look of interest...there is far too much other stuff for me to be keeping an eye on at the mo- like LA....now...I am not saying anymore coz I will be off topic! LOLs   

(Edited by Mary Cooch to edit title - original submission Sunday, 18 January 2015, 9:15 PM)

 
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Picture of dawn alderson
Re: Moodle/Canvas/Comparing LMS
 

MARY WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH MY POSTS AND WHY ARE YOU FOLLOWING ME-DO YOU NOT HAVE ANYTHING BETTER TO DO!  

GET A LIFE

THIS GETS ME DOWN...HAS DONE FOR OVER A YEAR

BUZZ OFF! AND LEAVE ME ALONE PLEASE.

 
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Picture of Ken Task
Re: Moodle/Canvas/Comparing LMS
Particularly helpful Moodlers

Think Mary only making sure we keep this 'off topic chat' in a 'proper forum' ... that's all (says edit title).

Hmmmm ... 'any well-informed pedagogical principles' ... yes, when I first investigated what was 'out there' for online learning that was one of the things that caught my eye.  Matter of fact, it was one of the bullet points/ arguments to try it.  Moodle was the only one that mentioned any such thing.   Things change!

However, reality and intended purpose don't always go hand in hand.   What I found (here again, this is in my small corner of the world) is this ... one the first tools teachers wanted to use ... link to a file (share files with students).   Courses became an online file cabinet consisting of the files provided by textbook publishers.   No interactive tools used ... no forum, no blog, no wiki, no anything where the student could really participate.   Many found IM on and turned it off ... across the site.   In affect, many teachers moved from 'sage on the stage' to 'sage on the page' - but it *looked* impressive to administrators that evaluated their performance (and there was no section in the evaluation for online learning).

So there might be tools that lend themselves to  pedagogical principles but it doesn't mean teachers will use them.  Texas has a product called CScope which many schools use.  When a teacher finally drills down to a specific lesson for a TEK and looks at an example of a 'exemplorary lesson', I was somewhat shocked to find 'behavioral objectives' (of the late 1970's).  Teachers are also to follow TEKS ... and students are tested on those TEKS.

Tools can be found in many learning management/course management systems ... BB, Canvas, and Google Classroom and much depends upon how they are used.

Ok, we've both had enough I think ... know I have ... thanks your thoughts.

'spirit of thinkering', Ken

 
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Picture of dawn alderson
Re: Moodle/Canvas/Comparing LMS
 

Hi Ken,

when you say:

'Think Mary only making sure we keep this 'off topic chat' in a 'proper forum' ... that's all (says edit title)'.

It is important to stay on task-Ken *grins*

Edit title is no more for our posts  'I' have resolved issue (item#1).

I agree with your points and a very good place to stop for reflection, is indeed, here:

Tools can be found in many learning management/course management systems ... BB, Canvas, and Google Classroom and much depends upon how they are used....and I would add to that 'tools that are designed that afford the teacher to adopt different approaches for learning'-not just how they are used....that is based on the creativity of the teacher....there also needs to be an element of creativity in the design/functionality/fit for purpose- of the actual tool too J

 
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Just wondering . . .
Re: Moodle/Canvas/Comparing LMS
Particularly helpful Moodlers

Re Canvas:

We've figured out what Canvas is. I sometimes post in this thread about Canvas watching.  https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=186227

Canvas is worth watching.  I now have followed lightly more than 4,000 of the posts in the Canvas support forum.  The grass is only sometimes greener.  

Bit it is difficult to get a fix on things in the LMS world.  Most people in the Canvas/D2L/Moodle/Sakai world are nice people and unwilling to slash and burn when they leave a product: it is usually with sadness, and the real truth of rationale behind a migraton is often not caught in public.  I now know over 20 folk how have oozed and slid-den gently out of Moodle.org in the last little while.  This is life.  I've told my story elsewhere of flying to a foreign clime to run a Moodle workshop and to find the have installed Canvas.  We worked for a day or so, and now they are a Canvas institution.  (It was actually partly this that promoted me to ask Michael and Martin for a better indicative roadmap, since I was finding it impossible to work with some clients - here: https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=265939 So far my request has been met by silence, but it is early days yet)

IMO: the reference that Colin provides is hopelessly biased and only a little helpful (I quote: "Not long ago 14 (think that was the number) entities of higher ed. moved from Moodle to Canvas (sorry, don't have link) but here's something interesting: - http://educhalk.org/blog/university-of-texas-lms-comparison-canvas-first-moodle-a-distant-last-place/)

Migrating Bb > Canvas > Moodle

At the risk of repetition, I'll repeat Colin again "Better off looking at some of the newer tools, like Canvas. Set up a RoR directory and put Canvas onto the server, then work out how to convert from Canvas courses to Moodle, and Moodle courses to Canvas."

The original post https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=278529 didn't even hint at "We want to migrate courses"  but if you do, migrating courses is traversed here: https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=260498 with the Canvas to Moodle option.  I suspect there is NO nice Bb > Moodle option which is why Colin  suggested do the Bb > Canvas > Moodle pathway.

I was surprised no-one mentioned https://docs.moodle.org/28/en/Blackboard_migration

And another comment: migrating questions can be a spearate challenge.  smile

Re: Mary's edit to the posts in this thread:

I'd agree with Ken.  Mary is not modding as in editing content, style, delivery, topics - just keeping the forums tidy.  I think this is a legitimate role, re-fling posts in a different thread/forum.  It's like herding cats.  


Capitals on the net is regarded as shouting.  (Just saying)

Pedagogy

Again, just to acknowledge the posts of Ken and others here.  Ken says: "Ok, we've both had enough I think ... know I have ... thanks your thoughts"

So I won't add more here.  Except to say I have not given up on seeing tools used with a little more verve and panache.  When our students and systems and managers and time permit.

-Derek
My first serious post.  From Mantra in Kosamui.  http://www.mantrasamui.com/relaxing/infinity-pool/ Just warming up to Friday to deal with the giants and demons of plugins, server and staff not ready for a 2.8.1+ upgrade.

So I can't find how to make text smaller, but I can use subscript.  smile

 
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Picture of dawn alderson
Re: Moodle/Canvas/Comparing LMS
 

Morning Derek,

and welcome to the party.  

When you say: 

Re: Mary's edit to the posts in this thread:

I'd agree with Ken.  Mary is not modding as in editing content, style, delivery, topics - just keeping the forums tidy.  I think this is a legitimate role, re-fling posts in a different thread/forum.  It's like herding cats.  

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to.  I think your opinion is very narrow, and I am entitled to that.

As for the rest of the post I don't have time to engage with it, or maybe I don't have any interest-I am not sure...I don't have an opinion about that big grin nice cheesy grin to start the day.     

 
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Just wondering . . .
Re: Moodle/Canvas and comparing LMS systems (split from Transition from BB to Moodle)
Particularly helpful Moodlers

The Canvas/LMS question is still rearing it's head for me.

This came today, an old post (November last year):

http://mfeldstein.com/dammit-lms/

With a comment on the ONE thing that won hearts with Canvas:

Canvas was a runaway hit from the start, but not because of its openness. Do you know what did it? Do you know what single set of capabilities, more than any other, catapulted it to the top of the charts, enabling it to surpass D2L in market share in just a few years? Do you know what the feature set was that had faculty from Albany to Anaheim falling to their knees, tears of joy streaming down their faces, and proclaiming with cracking, emotion-laden voices, "Finally, an LMS company that understands me!”?

I won't post Michael's answer, because it really needs to be in context.

Interesting eh?  This thought I may return to.

-Derek

 
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Tim at Lone Pine Koala Sanctuary
Re: Moodle/Canvas and comparing LMS systems (split from Transition from BB to Moodle)
Core developersDocumentation writersParticularly helpful MoodlersPlugin developers

That was a great article. Long, but well worth reading. The best bit for me came later:

Nobody comes to the table with an affirmative vision of what an online learning environment should look like or how it should work. Instead, they come with this year's checklists, which are derived from last year's checklists. ...

This is why we can't have nice things. I understand that it is more emotionally satisfying to rail against the Powers That Be and ascribe the things that we don't like about ed tech to capitalism and .... But if we were really honest with ourselves and looked at the details of what's actually happening, ... It's what we ask for and how we ask for it. As with our democracy, we get the ed tech that we deserve.

While the vast majority of what goes on in this community is people asking for and getting help, and a large majority of the development is just about making administration more efficient. There is still a corner of this community where people talk about how online education should work, to make the best use of the Internet. Really, we need more of that.

 
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Picture of Przemek Kaszubski
Re: Moodle/Canvas and comparing LMS systems (split from Transition from BB to Moodle)
 

That Speed Grader features the Crocodoc doc viewer and online annotation tool, later acquired by Box, as far as I remember. Yes, a speedy online tool like this must have made a diff to the instructors. Plus the rubrics on the side - all on one screen, easily switchable. I do find this "nice". It's the central teaching functions (like efficient grading and marking) that good LMS's should support in the first place, in my opnion. The extra stuff should build on top of that, be an extension, appeal to the more adventurous teacher / learner types etc.

 
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Picture of dawn alderson
Re: Moodle/Canvas and comparing LMS systems (split from Transition from BB to Moodle)
 

Tim,  utterly insightful of you.  Absolutely agree.

thanks. 

 
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moi!!! it is what is is...
Re: Moodle/Canvas and comparing LMS systems (split from Transition from BB to Moodle)
Documentation writersParticularly helpful Moodlers

Tim, as always, you make interesting observations. I have to agree with Przemek, though. The Speedgrader with the rubric grading link on the side is a great feature. While I like Moodle's gradebook, it has, like the quiz module, always seemed to be a little daunting to the new user. I suspect if these two features can be made to look simple, easy to setup and use in basic configurations, flexible enough to adapt to almost any standard, then Moodle will be the killer LMS. But what a big task that is going to be!

 
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Picture of Chris Kenniburg
Re: Moodle/Canvas and comparing LMS systems (split from Transition from BB to Moodle)
Particularly helpful MoodlersPlugin developers
I am always a little weary of reports like this.  Comparisons are hard to do as there are many many variables.  The people conducting the pilots will not know what they do not know.  Instructure and the demo site they would provide is a finished product.  I look at Moodle's base install as a starting point which requires some setup before ever letting teachers in on it.  


For what it's worth we had a local K-12 district go from Blackboard to Moodle to Canvas and now being unsatisfied with that they are looking at Sakai. 

I really believe many people are convinced that just because you add technology that all of a sudden a magical fairy is going to appear and make things easy.

With a lack of a plan which blends the needs of educators and the technology you end up doing this:


Good luck.  

 
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Tim at Lone Pine Koala Sanctuary
Re: Moodle/Canvas and comparing LMS systems (split from Transition from BB to Moodle)
Core developersDocumentation writersParticularly helpful MoodlersPlugin developers

If you are looking for a fairly realistic example of what Moodle can do, there is this demo site: http://school.demo.moodle.net/

 
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Picture of Rick Jerz
Re: Moodle/Canvas and comparing LMS systems (split from Transition from BB to Moodle)
Particularly helpful Moodlers

Tim, this is probably not the right place to mention this to you, but I will.

I am using 2.8.2 with your improvements to the quizzes.  You really did a fantastic job simplifying the creation of randomized quizzes.  Thanks much.

Last semester, I learned how to do this in D2L.  You wouldn't believe how awkward it is.  D2L takes 3 times as long (or more), and probably has 3-5 times more steps.

Somehow, this is the kind of information that never seems to be considered when comparing LMS's.  It's like "Yep, Blackboard and D2L can do quizzes, so they are all the same." without really understand how one system surpasses the others.  Another example is that Blackboard has no built-in mechanism to make an "exception"  for a student.  Somehow Blackboard thinks that we teach in a perfect world (like that frictionless table in physics).

 
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Ben talking on the phone beside a monitor
Re: Moodle/Canvas and comparing LMS systems (split from Transition from BB to Moodle)
Particularly helpful MoodlersTesters

To repeat myself from some other year(s), I've been on a committee to review the usual suspects for LMS/LVE/CMS/whatever you want to call it since the early 2000's.

Typically, people who know one CMS, say Blackboard, have no idea how to ask what a module/activity is called in Canvas.

Users who know only one system, have no idea what the "quiz" function really does in another CMS. Rick is on target about that. The comparison charts are overly simplifed to "Moodle has Quiz? Yes" "Canvas has Quiz? Yes."

But Moodle has question behaviors (US spelling). Does Canvas or Blackboard? How would you even ask?

Even before CMS/LMS/LVE existed, I saw people who had to teach with a particular textbook testify that it *was* the textbook to use. Simply because it was the *only* textbook they knew. A bit of Stockholm Syndrome, that. When you have learned the only thing you know, it is the only thing you love.

Plus, twice in the last 10 years, my group spent a lot o' time looking at comparison charts and making them, that exhibited how ignorant we were of other CMSes.

 
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Picture of dawn alderson
Re: Moodle/Canvas and comparing LMS systems (split from Transition from BB to Moodle)
 

Hi Ben, 

interesting points there.

One thing, when you say:

  But Moodle has question behaviors (US spelling). Does Canvas or Blackboard? How would you even ask?

I am sure Tim is aware of what is out there as I am...so it goes anyone can google it 'fairly' easily. 

 The thing is with Bb..am not sure with canvas, there are a lot of extras to be paid for with Bb...like buying an add-on or an app....Quiz for Bb falls into that category.  Someone tell me if I am wrong eh.

D  

 
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Picture of Rick Jerz
Re: Moodle/Canvas and comparing LMS systems (split from Transition from BB to Moodle)
Particularly helpful Moodlers

Your post made me wonder if my school, which claims to have the latest Bb, has purchased any extra features for quizzes.  I am not sure.  Did my school buy the stripped down version of the quiz engine?  Could they have purchased a better Bb quiz engine?  I don't know.

 
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moi!!! it is what is is...
Re: Moodle/Canvas and comparing LMS systems (split from Transition from BB to Moodle)
Documentation writersParticularly helpful Moodlers

And here is another Moodle demo site that is excellent, put up in another Forum, by Natalie Denmeade, called Klevar.com

 
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