Roadmap

Roadmap

by Derek Chirnside -
Number of replies: 54

I complained the lack of detail in the roadmap recently in the tracker, and someone (I forget who or where) suggested I ask Martin.  

The new streamlined roadmap has no longer added in the links to tracker items or discussions in the forums or in the docs.  Even some of the old discussion was deleted.

This makes it less easy to know what is going on with discussions still very scattered (tracker, docs, forums, blogs and emails).  

Is this new lean tracker to fix some problem?  Meet a new standard??  Is it a feature or a bug?

I'd like the old style back.

-Derek


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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Roadmap (continued)

by Derek Chirnside -

I've found the tracker link: https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-3714

I am aware that Martin Dougiamas has changed the way in which we present the roadmap - this is something out of my control, but perhaps Martin can comment in the forums on these changes to the roadmap.

Nothing so far back on this.

RANDOM STORY ABOUT SOFTWARE. Recently I paid for a professional upgrade to Evernote purely because of the new presentation mode.  It has the potential to be great.  Type a note, insert pictures, click Present and it will then break it up into slides.  The time to create a presentation is then reduced to 1/4 of the normal Powerpoint/LibreOffice/Keynote/Prezi options.  But there is ONE BIG problem.  You can have ANY FONT SIZE you want in the presentation, Provided it is 17 point.  Too small.  By far.

I thought, OK, I'll see what's in the forums.  Here is what I got back by an Evernote evangelist, who has 7000 posts under his belt, not paid by Evernote, just a pleb:

Evernote really don't (usually) comment on features that may or may not be in development.  Until they identify a possible feature they can't know whether it's technically feasible or not - unless it was a completely dumb*ss suggestion,  which yours isn't.  My only point is that they don't comment.  At all. And future development is always under wraps until they're ready for it to be released,  like Apple and every other software design house I can think of.  Same goes for Ford and car manufacturers,  Nikon and camera companies... 

I asked to see if Evernote was going to see about fixing the font size or not.  In a forum filled with Evernote staff.  "We will not tell you if we are going to think about something or not think about it"  Sucks.  So I move on to something else, and just count my pro subscription a bad deal.

MY CURRENT FEELINGS.  Existentially, Moodle.org, MoodleINC, for me, has changed over the last little while.  Imperceptably.  I read this on the home page:

The Moodle project

Learn more about the Moodle project and our open, collaborative partnerships.

I do not feel now that I benefit from 'Openess' and I see less results of 'collaborative partnerships'.  In the interests of full disclosure, I should add a little more.

THE RECENT CATALYST FOR ALL THIS.  I have just come back from a wonderful roadtrip to Djakarta and Bandung there I did three Moodle related sessions at three Universities/Colleges.  And I am now shortly to teach a course where we use a new system to deliver part of it (System A below).  

So this has thrown up three contacts with other LMS's:

  1. System A: One that is totally proprietary.  Has focused on getting course content creation really really sharp.  I could create a (Moodle) Lesson like entity with NO help apart from a 5 minute video, but looking like it was delivered with a cool theme like Essential.
    In the odd serendipity of life I am co-teaching a course on Literacy and Numeracy soon.  Out students will be using this system.  Getting in, creating accounts, tracking progress is superb.
  2. System X: at workshop three in Indonesia a guy said "I use X and it is easier than Moodle in every respect except it does not have cloze questions"  Again, superb interface, drag and drop where it counts.  Drag and drop to insert images, upload video.  Paid service, but 2GIG and several courses for free for teachers - so this guy (in a Moodle institution) was using system X with his classes.
    When I looked around a little on the site for system X they had a statement "If we get a request for a feature that will benefit 80% of our users, we will provide it".
  3. System Z: I was shown how quick basic things are.  Ie not the bells and whistles activities, the core activities like marking, uploading, student management, collaborative work . . .  ie the real constructivist stuff that is student centred.
    1. "Forum post is 'required': here is a list of all the people NOT finished - email them a reminder"  
    2. "Here is your assignment, join a group and go for it". 
    3. "Log in and there are your notices in a nice visible place"
    4. "Here is your list of course tags you can use for each post"
    5. "Here is the way you can communicate privately with individuals"
    6. "Here is the ONE CLICK archive of all student related material for records purposes"

      And this person was saying they listened to users.  And that they worked from functionality to implementation.  People can ask for a feature.  When what they really need is a specific functionality that could be provided by any number of different features, and there seems active engagement with users on this with system Z.
      These guys have created workflows that help with the common processes teachers actually do and helped make them (ie the workflows) complete.

In comparison, Moodle is still talking about issues that impact on workflows without addressing the issues.  So an average teacher has to do a lot of clicks to do basic things.  Upload images.  Track students.  Manage group work.  Have notices in a nice place.  etc.  Workflows in Moodle remain a weakness.

NEW CLIENTS I WORRY ABOUT.  It is recently in workshops in Saudi Arabia, Bandung and Auckland I see a new group of people who do not any more need to be convinced that blended learning is worth the effort.  I have to say "Sorry, in Moodle you can't click and drag a video to put it on your site, you need to change the extension to FLV and  . . . " "and no, embedding video is complicated by having to add a label . . . "  "Sorry, if you are making a post you can't click and drag and image . . ."  "Sorry, there is no way to communicate individually with students except messages . . ."  "Sorry, the course sizes reporting is only in  this specific distribution . . ."  "Sorry, Moodle doesn't want you to ever print out quizzes . . .  " etc.  And it is increasingly not good.

Much more than I meant to post.  For not the first time since Moodle 2.6 hit the shelves, I am seriously wondering if there is an option that will better suit the needs of the classroom teacher than Moodle.  Initially this just started with frustration at the basics, now it has move a little to frustration with no HOPE the basics will be addressed.  

As I flew back from Djakarta I had a stopover in Sydney and wrote a few pages in the docs: https://docs.moodle.org/27/en/Curated_list

Basically for a number of years I have specialised in trying to find workarounds for the basic needs I outline above.  I wanted to build a list of key things as I could estimate would benefit (say) 80% of users, and find the work arounds and plugins to help. And what I saw several of my client organisations could benefit from.  It's suddenly escalated - unless some of these are fixed, I will see people even in my close working associates migrate to their own places (Like system X mentioned above)  Compared to Moodle, if you are sorted and organised with your design - it is SO QUICK to create, and a fair bit easier to manage students.

I find ELIS, JOULE, MIS and TOTARA have some of these funtionalities built in with mods and fixes.

Relationships between tracker - developer - forums - users - partners is sometimes a bit fraught (like Bob has mentioned: https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=180865#p789406 and other discussions you will know about) and things are not ALL bad.  It's just that in my small ambit of the world, there has been a shift in things, and it is starting to majorly affect day to day life with people and Moodle.

NON-CONCLUSION  All this started with a complaint about a Moodle Roadmap that was becoming too sparse and unhelpful for me, and no-one responding.  And if anyone actually reads this, I hope your brain cells are not too addled.

-Derek

And for the sake of completeness, I have rambled a bit before on this issue, but read at your peril:

And there is this mega discussion: https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=180865 "One person's trivial is another man's critical?"






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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Roadmap (continued)

by dawn alderson -

DC-hello,

Yes, agree. However, transition can be complex.  And, it takes time to work with a disrubted flow. Disruption can spark innovation-and that takes time.

I am sure Martin is on the case-and the roadmap, well-I get it-it needs to be more explicit for all-that will come-with time.  I do think DC-you offer some valuable starting points there for an agenda that includes movement forward for innovation.

Patience, my friend.

Cheers,

Dawn

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Roadmap (continued)

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Derek

I'm sorry, I fail to see the problem. Moodle is "as is" for most of its users, including you and me. It is a great work, istn't it? And above all, it is free!

I can imagine one source of confusion though: the term Community. What is it exactly? Are you sure that we, you and I, are there?
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Roadmap (continued)

by Derek Chirnside -

I'll respond properly later Visvanath [and Dawn].

Just out of curiosity, do you still TEACH or BUILD courses in Moodle Visvanath?  

I think that is my basic point: too hard and complicated in the basic activities of teaching and build of courses, and little or no indication of ANY real improvement coming, much non-communication about things, frustration and it's made me tired.  Now I have seen teachers wondering.  Your question about Community I will leave until another day.

[There is ONE exception:  .  .  .  Here: [MDL-43996] Atto: add image drag and drop capability in editing window - immediate saving every day for everyone who posts regularly in forums - a HUGE benefit]

I am reminded of this old old joke:

A guy goes to buy something at a shop which has a big sign "Popular Prices" and grumbles to the girl selling.  
"You call these popular prices?"  he says.
The girl smiled sweetly and said "Well, we like them"

UPDATE ON EVERNOTE: I will say that an unusual thing has happened on Friday in the Evernote forums: an Evernote person has actually asked me about my Evernote Present problems.  https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/64482-feature-request-presentation-mode-increased-font-size/?p=296715

-Derek

Saturday night beckons.

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Roadmap (continued)

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi Derek

The question you left "until another time", about community, is a key question. The remaing discussion tekes different paths depending on the answer. Still, I'llI try to answer your immediate question:

Yes, I "build" Moodle courses for my own teaching. But my main teaching is face-to-face. The Moodle courses for them are rudimentary, I could do make them in Moodle 1.4! But they are still very effective, because they simplify the adminstrative work drastically.

As a system administrator, I support many Moodle administrators. Through them, and through moodle.org, I am in touch with the development of Moodle. (see my profile)

Only recently I started woking on a couple of short modules for mostly self-study. I plan to use Moodle 2.5 (and the new features in Moodle 2) for those modules.

Talking bugs and features of Moodle, I have realized that I am a completely non-standard user. Just as an example, I immediately change the "text editor" in profile to Text area and non-existant to all the WYSIWYG discussions about TinyMCE and ATTO! (Except that they are not Text editors for me.)
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Roadmap (continued)

by Derek Chirnside -

cool You are quite right of course.  Community is a key question.

What is a community?  Common cause, mutuality.  The problem comes with any software community with dual licence there can often be a pull between the OS/Free and the commercial arm.  We are not all equal in a community: issues like reputation, contribution, time, effort and results make up our standing.  Be that as it may: Common purpose is not enough.  A bus queue is not a community.  But something can happen to make it one.  Random example, slightly emotional, but you'll get the point.


I think here at Moodle we have become LESS of an OPEN community.  Sometimes less of a community as well.  It's common as a group grows and matures.  And gets so preoccupied it forgets about the people at the bottom of the pile.

-----------------

However, you say: "I fail to see the problem. Moodle is "as is" for most of its users, including you and me. It is a great work, istn't it? And above all, it is free!"

The bit I'm interested in is "It's a great work"  One of my basic points is this.  If you teach with Moodle (ie Moodle core with maybe a few plugins) then many many basic activities are time consuming and click heavy.

(At the risk of seeming like a dripping tap, examples are making posts with images, uploading video clips to the right size, communicating with individual students conveniently, managing groups, getting basic reports on class activities, following and grading posts in a forum, marking a quiz for one person . . . .)

Coders can think things are 'great'.  But there are some basics (probably a bit prosaic to code, it's more interesting in doing a lot of other stuff etc) that 1) we need information of help from MoodleHQ to progress 2) are just languishing in the tracker or 3) have been replaced on the old roadmap by other items.

The common activities are being (in general) ignored.  A 'great work' maybe.  But still often time consuming or difficult to work with (or both).

That's why I was interested if you Taught or Built courses.

And I've got to smile: yes you are non standard.  Do you manually code links, images, lists, bold etc etc??

More sometime.  I appreciate your posting.

-Derek

PS Dawn.  I'm not ignoring you.  But you should be finishing your paper.  Later.  smile

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Roadmap (continued)

by dawn alderson -

on the contrary-nope I understand you are not ignoring me smile Paper gone for revision 1-twas most helpful to have the reviewers comments actually-strengthens things and enables clarity of thought.

I know another chap who avoids tricky questions with the initials DC...the UK prime minister! LOL!


 

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Roadmap (continued)

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Derek

I should have been more specific. When I asked, "the term Community. What is it exactly?", I didn't mean the general term, but the Moodle community as used in the http://moodle.org. (BTW, the video is broken on my netbook, Debian/Iceweasel.)

You said: "I think here at Moodle we have become LESS of an OPEN community. Sometimes less of a community as well". Without agreeing on the function of the Moodle community, it is difficult to make any statements on that. What I wanted to say with being a non-standard user is that, I don't expect Moodle to implement my work-flow. Incidentally, here is another example https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=264756#p1148590 which popped up just today.

About "coding" HTML: For me it is mark-up, and I use them sparingly. People have written on emotions before the emoticon was invented, haven't they? Even if you forget the mechanical type writer, have a look at any random RFC http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-index.html to see how much information one can convey through ASCII! (There is more on mark-up and mark-down in the discussion I've linked above.)
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Roadmap (continued)

by Derek Chirnside -
@ Visvanath: "I don't expect Moodle to implement my work-flow"

Well.  

Who's workflow should it implement?

I don't expect Moodle to implement my workflow.

My point is

  1. There are basic things most teachers need to do.  (Lets say 80% of teachers)
  2. I've called these activity chains workflows, for the lack of a better term
  3. I'd like to see attention given to these.  This actually answers the question "What are we trying to achieve?"
  4. When I first arrived here at Moodle.org, conversations occurred around these.  Now they don't so much.  Many ignored hanging threads, and we are often left to guess at things, and work in the dark.
  5. Result: missing simple, quick and clear workflows in core Moodle for some key task.  And those are the dreaded three words.  Usually it is 'Pick Two'.

I'm advocating more dialogue and conversations around these things.  I'm hoping for more response from the people with power.

I think the workflow supported should be the 'average' (80%) user,  Communities help define this moving target.  While you and I may NOT be an average user, it is important to advocate.

????

-Derek





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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Roadmap (continued)

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi Derek

Just a clarification: When I said, "I don't expect Moodle to implement my work-flow", I wasn't complaining. I've brought those "non-standard user" examples to explain that I understand.

You ask: "Who's workflow should it implement?" How can I answer? That _should_ part calls for political or moral reasons, which I do not dare to delve into. If you mean "Who's workflow does it implement?" I can take an unqualified shot. I don't know how you arrived at this 80% of teachers, if you ask me, I would spontanously say, about 5% of the teachers make a serious effort to supplement their teaching with a LSM. Even if 80% do, I'd expect 20% of the "corporate world" instructors to outweigh (not only in USD) those 80%. So it is natural for Moodle, and other LMSes, to implement the corporate workflow.

Historically, Moodle came from college education but switched to the corporate world a long time ago. Possibly, you are missing the direct user participation of those early days. Sorry, that is passé. Everything else follows.

To be honest, I do not feel comfortable with this dialog in the General help forum. How general is this? OK, the description says: If you're not sure where to post, use this forum! That is not a strong reason, IMO.

And to complete the circle, what is the (Moodle) community, BTW?
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Roadmap (continued)

by Jez H -

Workflow for a new moodle course would encourage you to add a course summary, image, introduction, manage sections... Prompt you to do certain things, the basics.

Every day i see courses with no summary, no introduction, empty sections.

Moodle encourages staff to make a mess, other systems encourage them to make something better, and make something better they do.

The only value Moodle has is that which teachers add to it. Moodle makes it hard for teachers to build courses. Another LMS makes it easier. This means students get better courses out of that LMS.

Its very bsasic stuff.

Have Moodle ever in their history done any propber split (A/B) testing on their interface designs?

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In reply to Jez H

Re: Roadmap (continued)

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Jez

We started calling these things workflows "for the lack of a better term" [https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=265939#p1158324]. Obviously there are many different workflows and my statement was that going from 1.9 to 2 Moodle broke my workflow. That is not so important.

Since you seem to know the workflow of a teacher you might be able to help these people in the Repository forum, https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=262556.
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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Roadmap (continued)

by dawn alderson -

Hi there,

have been thinking a little more about this.  I know Derek, that you have been a strong advocate for better forum gui-for some time eh smile Not that you have been loud about it, of course. But, I think now is the time to focus on that in moodle-especially in the grand mock-up exemplar/user interface-@ moodle.org. 

You see, I agree with you most def about the need for modernisation because I have noticed 'we', you and I-all are using a forum layout that stretches for miles once it reaches more than 10 or so posts....not really a dream design for my moby to be honest.  And, well-given I am member of this community ;0) I think I can express my views here with confidence.

Here goes: rationale...I have not long finished Doctoral study with the Open University (over a five year period), and the forum set-up was, I must say, a dream....choice as to whether you wanted the long-haul/story/narrative of a forum thread or cut to the chase-in being able to view the last post-I emphasise the word 'choice' here.

Linked-in....40-odd other comments/posts-can be hidden or shown-again my choice when reading a thread.

And, now Gmail-very recently has updated its email service-with the same format....tis slick because you can see the number of posts that are constantina-d effectively....again nice choice for the user to dip into what they would like to read.

Outlook-ditto.

So, Derek, if there is a Tracker link for anything similar to the above features for improvements in moodle forums-can you send me a nudge-as to where?

cheers,

Dawn     

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In reply to dawn alderson

Re: Roadmap (continued)

by dawn alderson -

Hi,

Been thinking a bit about this thread.

Essentially the roadmap is here:

https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Roadmap

I wonder if there is a slight confusion/lack of clarity perhaps, due to the following logic that might need to be more connected:

So, we have part A:

Major areas of development

Here are the broad themes of development for Moodle, which are heavily influenced by requests from our user community. A lot of projects are going on in all these areas.

Platform

  • Usability - organisation and navigation of courses, activities and other features
  • Plugins infrastructure - improving environment for development and management of Moodle plugins
  • Support infrastructure - improving central support documentation and services for users of Moodle

Access

  • Accessibility - social inclusion for people with all kinds of disabilities
  • Small touchscreens - making Moodle work well on phones and tablets
  • Offline - our Moodle Mobile app provides offline capabilities for Moodle.

Management

  • Outcomes and competencies - better tracking of what people know
  • Learning plans - better tracking of what people need to know
  • Workflow - guiding learning processes between different people
  • Rollover - handling end-of-year processes for recycling and archiving courses

Feedback

  • Logging - Improved access to events data
  • Analytics - Automated analysis of learning data to find trends and events that help teachers, learners and admins
  • Reporting - Easy customised reports that combine data from various areas in Moodle
  • Notifications- Real-time messaging to mobile devices of events determined by analytics and reports

Content (OER)

  • moodle.net - our central repository for shared Moodle courses and other Moodle data
  • Template courses - crowd-sourced development of shared Moodle courses using Creative Commons

And, we have part B:

Current work

  • (Platform/Access) Gradebook user interfaces
  • (Platform/Access) Navigation
  • (Platform/Access) Forum subscription, anonymity and accessibility
  • (Platform) Element library
  • (Feedback) Extending events
  • (Feedback) New Event Monitor report and notifications
  • (Feedback) Report builder
  • (Management) Outcomes 2
  • (Content) Improvements to moodle.net
  • (Platform) Improvements to Moodle Plugins directory

What is part C?

e.g. how do the elements in part A link up, specifically, in what way....with part B?

Example: Part A element: Accessibility-perhaps links with Nav-but I suppose the 'community' might like to know the detail as to how-this will be meted out.....or are these two things connected anyway-for movement forward in dev terms for 2.8...and so on....

Just some thoughts really-that is all.

Cheers,

Dawn 

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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Roadmap

by Jez H -

The "Moodle Project" has historically done a bad job of listening to users (decade of scroll of death one example).

This line strikes a chord:

"If we get a request for a feature that will benefit 80% of our users, we will provide it"

Contrast that wit a quip by martin a while back which went along the lines of:

"80% of users only use 20% of the features... I spend 90% of my time on the things you never use"

Mean while the core features everyone uses improve very little over time.

Another LMS which focussed very heavily on usability spanks Moodle every time it comes up against it in a product selection process which has user evaluation / feedback as a key metric, because those users are evaluating the 20% they actually use.

That costs HQ money as these organisationsare the ones most likely to use a Moodle Partner.

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In reply to Jez H

Re: Roadmap

by dawn alderson -

Hi there,

gosh, there are a number of threads across general help/lounge, poss elsewhere... that appear to connect to the same issues. I am going to attempt to draw these together-as I see it, but first a note about the nature of these forums.

These forums engage dialogue, that means to me this is a  space that enables

difference/challenge without necessary resolution-enabling complexity-voice and presence...

And to be fair-we all get our ten-pence worth in-don't we smile

But what comes with that is the problem of no resolution....(e.g. forum scroll over a decade!!

and when it comes to decision making the job can then be tricky to account for what matters in the main-for the user-my interpretation.

Anyway.  I have read about

-a decline in schools adopting Moodle-as stated in these forums

-the challenge of marrying up dev work with user need

-the simplicity of 1.9 and the increasing complexity that pervades 2. onwards

-80% of users do this and 20% of users do that-again all this is dialogue...as far as I can see

I think, to use old fashioned 'speak' fit for purpose needs to prevail. What I mean by that is the primary teacher who teaches 7 year olds is going to use kit that fits the purpose for learning and teaching for that age group...and the Prof is going to need tools that afford more metacognitive tasks/engagement...a need for more logging/tracking and so on-this is just a tip of the iceberg observation....but a good starting place for overseeing fit for purpose may be to break down the roadmap for sustainablity purposes:

e.g. each of the sectors gets its own roadmap...and select teams work on them...and rotate teams-this would enable an insight into pedagogical differences and need

So, I think bringing back 1.9 or something along those lines is not a bad idea.

Aferall, one hat may not fit all when you think about the ed systems Moodle supports:

primary

secondary

tertiary/FE

Higher Ed

Prof development/business

I have emailed Martin some thoughts also.

Cheers,

Dawn     

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In reply to dawn alderson

Re: Roadmap

by Jez H -

"gosh, there are a number of threads across general help/lounge, poss elsewhere... that appear to connect to the same issues"

Its not new, thats what I meant about The Moodle Project doing a bad job of listening to users, and now its starting to catch up with them as Moodle Partners lose out to other vendors.

I watched a video of "Moodle vs Another LMS" the other day, it was a comparison of the two, the same kind of comparison users are asked to do in product selection.

What they did in that comparison was build a basic course in both systems.

And what would happen after that is students would access the course in both systems.

Thats what you have to be good at to win out in vendor competition, please 100% of users with the 20% of features that matter to everyone.

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In reply to Jez H

Re: Roadmap

by Dan Marsden -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Plugins guardians Picture of Testers Picture of Translators
Personally one of the reasons I think some of the other LMS win in some of these comparisons is that Moodle listens to it's users but this listening can also cause problems!

One of the biggest criticisms I hear from new users to Moodle in comparing with other LMS is - "Moodle is too complicated" - this is because it's a popular product, and when someone says - I like Moodle, but I really wish it would do "X" - we add a new setting to control this functionality. This adds a further complexity to the interface and can make it even more daunting for new users. Moodle HQ has been working on improving this for a while - there are several advocates within the Moodle HQ team for decreasing the complexity of interfaces and things like Atto and improvements to forms are already starting to make a difference.

One of the biggest criticisms I hear about those other newer LMS products that are a bit more shiny and simplified is - I really like "Canvas" but I wish it would do "X" - Moodle already does "X" so we end up going in a circle!

The Moodle conferences are usually a really great opportunity for sharing/venting/discussing issues directly with Moodle HQ staff - the conferences I have been to provide ample opportunity for this to occur. Stating that Moodle doesn't listen to it's users is IMO incorrect, I think if they didn't listen we wouldn't have built such a thriving community. I'm sure it's a challenge for them to balance the needs of the community, partners and remain profitable enough to fund the core development team. I know I'm grateful Martin hasn't sold the HQ team off to Blackboard - who knows what we'd end up with then! evil
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In reply to Dan Marsden

Re: Roadmap

by Aaron Batty -
Dan: Yes and no.

Moodle's strong point is that if there's something you'd like to do, there's probably a way to do it. That is for sure.

It's weak points, though, aren't necessarily the result of that. They are:
  • Horrendous, click-and-scroll-heavy UIs
  • An incomprehensible file system
  • Poor support for newer web standards like HTML5 video
  • Most of the themes are eye-searingly awful and shamefully dated

These are under-the-hood problems that don't really have to do with the feature set. They are also indicative of an indifference to the UX of most users of the software. As an admin, I don't really mind going through the roughly one-billion settings necessary to set up a Moodle server, but as a teacher, I don't like how clunky and ugly and unintuitive it is to run my classes. Also as an admin, I don't like how many totally-reasonable questions I get from teachers. And although the reduced workload is nice, I also don't like dwindling number of teachers actually using the server I've spent so much time and effort on.

For most teachers, Moodle is nigh on unusable. It doesn't work like any other web application out there. The UI changes made actually exacerbate that problem because rather than bring them inline with other web apps, they just took established Moodle workflows--weird as they were--and changed them up. Known weird is better than new weird.

I am heavily invested in Moodle. I'm here for the foreseeable future.

But I really wish I weren't.

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In reply to Aaron Batty

Re: Roadmap

by Dan Marsden -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Plugins guardians Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Moodle is a big system - what you call horrendous click and scroll heavy UI's is partly influenced by people wanting to add more features/configuration and partly related to how Moodle has thrived historically. For a really long time Moodle HQ had no-one dedicated to work on themes or UI/UX - so it got feature rich but seriously lacking in the way it looked - many of the contributors to Moodle are not software developers but teachers and administrators scratching an itch and enjoying working with a community of like minded people. A large part of what many Moodle Partners have done is providing theme services to make Moodle look a lot better than it does out of the box to solve some of these issues for people with $$ but Moodle HQ was aware that the core Moodle Themes looked really crap so dedicated various scarce resource to improve things - and are still working on improvements like the new elements library.

More recently Moodle HQ have invested in dedicated designers and hiring people with good UX/UI knowledge... but the system is soo massive and the funding available is limited so we still rely a lot on community members volunteering time and knowledge. They have also split the development teams into back-end and front-end - now having a dedicated team to work on front-end facing stuff is also improving the UX (although it does feel like it's going slowly in some areas!)

Interesting to hear you call the file system incomprehensible - it gives us a lot more power than a simple file system, it provides a lot of things that many of our larger clients are looking for however there is always room for improvement and I understand sometimes there are advantages in keeping things simple... but Moodle is not a simple system and is used by a very large number of different organisations with very different needs.

The statement you make "For most teachers, Moodle is nigh on unusable." doesn't ring true with my experience but I'm sure each organisation has it's own differences. There are definitely some areas where Moodle doesn't do certain things as well as other newer shiny LMS and we do need to try and keep up - UI and UX  are definitely areas that still need work and there are some nice improvements coming from Moodle HQ and other community volunteers.

You do sound rather frustrated - perhaps it's time for a fresh perspective? - or you could use some of that frustration to help fix some of the UX/UI stuff by contributing improvements to the code in the tracker. I know some of the best work I've done has been out of a frustration over the way something works.... That's also how Moodle was born - out of Martin's frustration over beating a commercial LMS into submission.

I'd also encourage you to find something you enjoy working on, I'd love if Moodle inspired you but if you enjoyed working on a different open-source system then all power to you!! I'm sure your knowledge and experience would be welcomed and encouraged anywhere. smile... as a developer myself I do occasionally wish Moodle was written in a different programming language, but it's likely Moodle wouldn't have such a strong community if another language was used. The biggest things I enjoy about Moodle is the strong community with healthy discussion and the constructive criticism/peer review of my code which can be humbling and occasionally difficult to stomach but has made me into a much better developer. I continue to learn a lot from Moodle so I'm still enjoying myself.

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In reply to Dan Marsden

Re: Roadmap

by Dave Balch -

Hear hear!

There seem to be a few threads at the moment where some people (it appears to me) are being rather down on Moodle for not meeting their personal standards of excellence. Some are constructive with it, but others less so - perhaps not appreciating the tremendous effort invested by Moodle HQ and all the other developers to get Moodle where it is now, and to continue taking it forwards.

We'd all love to make Moodle perfect, but that's an impossible task anyway as "perfect" will be different - and mutually exclusive - systems for different people, and requirements continue to change.

As a Free, gratis, open source project, it comes down to the fact that, even if I'm not happy with something in Moodle, no-one is obliged to do anything about it for me - however vocal I am about it.

If I really need a problem solved, I accept that I may have to write some code, or pay someone to do it for me. Hey, if Martin Dougiamas goes power crazy and takes Moodle in some totally weird direction, there's even the option of forking.

IMO: complaining = bad, discussing = better, coding = best.

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In reply to Dave Balch

Re: Roadmap

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers

Dawn is quite right, one size does not fit all, which is why I have enables some plugins and disabled others in my three Moodles - well two and a half now, someone else is taking one over - hopefully permanently this time. One group wants some things, another wants a different set of tools and a third wants some common tools and then a few others. All three detest the Quiz module, far too complex. All three do not like the fact that they have to upload files one at a time when working with a course. File handling in Moodle sucks, they tell me. These are not power users, just trainers struggling to grasp the basics as they seem to keep changing. Each course should have a repository into which all files can be uploaded then used as an access point. Very simple, but "security" concerns seem to deny this. 

 Teachers are generally simple creatures and require things around them to be simple, mainly because they do not have the time, here at least, to spend trying to understand complex systems. Everything needs to be simplified as much as possible.  I seriously hope that as Visvanath said elsewhere, "Moodle going beyond schools", is really wrong... 

As others have commented, it is just getting too complex now. 

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In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Roadmap

by Mary Cooch -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Colin: All three do not like the fact that they have to upload files one at a time when working with a course. 

If they use drag and drop they can select a whole bunch and drag them in together?

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In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Roadmap

by dawn alderson -

Mary,


what type of files do you think Colin is on about?


back in a min....juicy stuff I want to address.....liking this thread....Dan/Dave B I want to rfespond to you both particularly.....back soon

smile

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In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Roadmap

by Derek Chirnside -

@ Mary Of course you are right for files like PDF, Word etc and images into a section.

I do not know what Colin is referring to specifically, but

  • If you want to upload MP4 videos from an SD card to your section you usually need to do them one by one to get them to play right. Click and Drag is possible: but often (generally) the options to play need to be coded to get the right size etc.
  • And if you are writing a quiz question, page, lesson, post etc, you need to handle each image one by one: no click and drag there.
  • If you are inserting videos into a page you have to do coding to change sizes.

These are pretty common activities.

@Floyd.  Your points:

  1. Private files.  Click and drag to upload=good.  I feel a bit embarrassed about having to say to staff sorry, no bulk delete/tidy up.  Then to click click click to navigate to find.  [Plus: The number of people I have seen try to drag and drop files to move them in private files]  
  2. Point taken.  Drag and drop images onto sections is great.
  3. Point taken.  However, you must have better fine motor skills to do the drag and drop to re-order sections if you do this in a big way.
  4. "Create Repositories"  We are not that rich I'm afraid.  Our staff (several projects) just want to drag and drop from their computer folders.  I LIKE this in some ways.  When the remove the files from a course, they are gone, and not hanging around in Private Files.  How do you cope with bloat in private files?  Moodle is not really a repository.
    And: what's a good repository?  I'm working in another Moodle at the moment in another school.  They have switched DnD off and require us to use a repository, with many many clicks.  Every file.
  5. "Use sharing cart"  Hmm.  More to learn.  More upgrading plugins to manage.

    You've not really convinced the poor teacher who just wants simple and speedy deployment of files in the right place, including the editor, the section, the page (etc) - and including videos.  Without coding.  Without a lot of clicks.  

Summary

This is just considering the tasks and workflows around managing/deploying files and creating a section/course, and then the ongoing file activity around posting, notifications, assignment management etc.  Common and frequent tasks.  The workflow currently in Moodle is complex, click heavy and slow, at least in all the ways I can think of.  This is the glass half empty view of course.  But it is what a lot of what teacher activity is all about. 

Quality, simple, speedy workflows are what I look for.

-Derek




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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Roadmap

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers

Sorry, I have been meaning to be more specific here...

I do not know what Colin is referring to specifically,

The are two sources here, if there was a single course repository for additional files, with the ability for the user to create folders within that course repository, it then becomes possible to upgrade course pages considerably more easily than it is right now. For example, I have one course, a set of tutorials on using Photoshop that I have to update every time there is an upgrade to  Photoshop, or to Moodle. I say Moodle here because quite frequently when there is a version change, for some reason, a lot of the images I use, and there are over 500 of them in this one course, seem not to keep their addressing straight. Most pages have ten or twelve images, but the toolbar and menus page has already been broken into two pages and have a lot of images. 

When Photoshop updates I also have to capture new images and just cannot give the new images the same name to replace those existing images, I have to go through and replace all the images that need changing, (eg menu and toolbar buttons, or the actual Photoshop image tools remain the same, but the techniques used will sometimes vary between versions),  one by one. 

What I would like to do is to be able to edit the HTML locally with a single root URL to images, which right now is impossible. 

Reading this, I am thinking how did I manage to trap myself into providing this tutorial at all - I started it with the release of Photoshop 6 I think, before Moodle and CS anyway....and it has just grown since then. Adding it into Moodle was great, and made it easy to move when I changed schools. There is more than enough material on YouTube, if the schools I work at allow access, so time to give it away now I am thinking. 

But, a similar situation exists with the maths courses I build and maintain. I use materials from YouTube, Kahn Academy, Wolfram Alpha and so on, and these places are really useful, but they never seem to be able to produce materials that meet the scope and sequence of the learning outcomes we require here. One size does not fit all here either. I have, to a point I think, given up and turned to using TeXLive to produce PDFs to achieve what I need. I just upload the PDFs to Moodle and add links to those other places for additional materials and explanations. I am getting a good product and by and large, a reasonable response from students. One school I have been working at does not use Moodle, they use another program which is an SMS with small, limited LMS capabilities, and was happy I could just upload my PDFs there without having to reinvent the wheel.  

I want to get away from that simplistic write and upload files to Moodle and use more of its capabilities, but its very complexity is preventing that from being a successful. strategy. 

I hope this makes it a little clearer Derek... clown


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In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Roadmap

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers

Re-reading this I think I need a little more elaboration on this point:

 but its very complexity is preventing that from being a successful. strategy. 

I think what I am referring to here is the elemental point of equating complexity with time spent on doing simple things. It is always going to take time to create materials in Moodle, but the less time spent for a good product is a much better option. Writing maths pages in TeXLive and uploading them is a far more productive use of my time than just writing the same thing in Moodle. It does not take me long at all now, which means I can do more or do something else that requires my attention. Write and test sections in TeXLive is a lot faster than in Moodle, and I do not always have to go back and reopen the editing option every time I make a change. In this case, i understand teacher frustration as "time consumption" - things have to be easier - simpler, less time consuming.  

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In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Roadmap

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers

If they use drag and drop they can select a whole bunch and drag them in together?

And that is what I keep telling them but either they do not understand what D'n'D is, after all they are teachers...  and I can't get to every one of them to hold their hands. I demonstrated it once and that afternoon, I had a member of the audience complaining about having to upload files one at a time. Duh.... 

But the first point is where can they do so? The course settings page has a D'n'D box, but it won't accept some file types, like zip files. Why? They get frustrated at having to upload a resource file into the course so they can upload several files in the D'n'D dialogue, then they delete the resource file, only to find the files they just uploaded have gone too. I am suggesting that, in the course settings page, the D'n'D dialogue  accept all files and place them into an automatically created course repository. That way a lot of angst can be resolved in a short sentence. "When a course is created, all files needed to be uploaded to the course can be dragged and dropped into the automatically created course repository." More and more systems are using D'n'D and as Derek has mentioned, Moodle is getting left behind here.  After creation of the course, another sentence could be added, "If additional files are needed to be uploaded to the course, open the course setting dialogue and drag and drop those files to the course repository." 

But underlying Derek's issue is the same one I have been talking about since v2.0 was released, increasing complexity is hurting, not helping. Moodle needs to be perceived as being more user friendly than other products. Right now, I am concerned that is just not the case, Mary.

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In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Roadmap

by Jez H -

Hi Mary,

You may remember a couple of years back HQ / Martin saying that Moodle should not be a file dump and that repositories did a better job.

We use a repository which is particularly useful for video as files are sent to Kaltura for transcoding but indexed / searchable in the repository. Getting users to adopt that process has been extremely difficult due to the comparative complexity of the way the file picker works.

Simultaneously drag and drop into course areas is enhanced putting files where? Into Moodles file system, the very place HQ previously said was not the best way of doing things.

I know most schools dont have repositories and I think the drag and drop features would be great, but that process is completely divorced from the file picker / repository process. You have in essence two rival processes pretty much divorced from one another.

If you are going to have repositories and drag and drop then the two need to work together at some level. For example some elements of the file picker should be available on the page and when you drag and drop you can select where you are dropping to (as in which repository).

You should then be able to drag and drop files from repositories (recent files being a prime example) back into courses.

As it stands users are not encouraged to use repositories, recent files etc, they are encouraged to keep dragging / dropping files from their desktop.

One of Moodle's greatest strengths is its modularity, the fact "everything is a plugin", the downside at times seems to be "modular thinking".

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In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Roadmap

by Floyd Saner -

Colin,

I not yet ready to jump into the full discussion here, although I do have some observations I will add at a later time.

For now, I offer several suggestions that might make life easier for your teachers.  

  1. Enable 'My files' in Site administration ... Plugins ... Blocks ... Manage blocks.  Then have your teachers place a 'My Private Files' block on their My Home page.  They can upload all files in that block, organize the files into folders - whatever.  All the files are there, and will be available in the file picker across all their courses.

  2. In more recent versions of Moodle (I forget when this started), it is possible to drag and drop images (even with multiple selections) onto a course page.

  3. It is possible to enable drag and drop of text and links directly onto a course page from other programs - even from selected text on a web page or text editor.  Even though this is 'experimental' with some browser limitations, it does work.  The setting is in  Site administration ... Development ... Experimental settings.  Enable  'Drag & drop upload of text/links'

  4. Create repositories that teachers can use.  These can be individual repositories, group/department repositories or site-wide repositories. 

  5. Create a course or courses for teachers that you designate as 'resource course' (just a name, not an actual course type), and install the Moodle Sharing Cart plugin.   Teachers can place files, images, activities, ..., any course item into the 'resource course' and quickly copy any of those items to a new course.

Floyd

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In reply to Floyd Saner

Re: Roadmap

by dawn alderson -

Hi, here goes...

Aaron, I think there are many out there who may think along the same lines as you-we dont have data-but just an educated guess.  That in itself is worthy of consideration for the future-perhaps.

@ Colin

'one size does not fit all, which is why I have enables some plugins and disabled others in my three Moodles'

Clin this is a really interesting point about the role of plugins for creating a bespoke Moodle to meet context needs....but who builds the plugins?

@Dawn

I think, to use old fashioned 'speak' fit for purpose needs to prevail. What I mean by that is the primary teacher who teaches 7 year olds is going to use kit that fits the purpose for learning and teaching for that age group...and the Prof is going to need tools that afford more metacognitive tasks/engagement...a need for more logging/tracking and so on-this is just a tip of the iceberg observation....but a good starting place for overseeing fit for purpose may be to break down the roadmap for sustainablity purposes

Writing up some research at the mo and the latest literature from Harvard...states 'instructors typically lack the time and/or engineering expertise to develop software or online content...and software developers often lack the content knowledge and/or interest to develop modules with significant educational value' (Sanders et al., 2014).

@Dan

'but Moodle is not a simple system and is used by a very large number of different organisations with very different needs'.  Dan this is same page stuff...

And this:

@Dan The statement you make "For most teachers, Moodle is nigh on unusable." doesn't ring true with my experience but I'm sure each organisation has it's own differences.

@Dave Balch

There seem to be a few threads at the moment where some people (it appears to me) are being rather down on Moodle for not meeting their personal standards of excellence. Some are constructive with it, but others less so - perhaps not appreciating the tremendous effort invested by Moodle HQ and all the other developers to get Moodle where it is now, and to continue taking it forwards. That last point moving forward is key....how/why/for whom?

And

@ Dave Balch

Hey, if Martin Dougiamas goes power crazy and takes Moodle in some totally weird direction, there's even the option of forking.  IMO: complaining = bad, discussing = better, coding = best.

Is this an innovative way to move forward? avoid any direction but that which includes an onus on code-as it is best?

I still think the whole notion of pedagogical knowledge/enhancement needs more of an outing across the board for Moodle-including HQ.

Cheers,

Dawn   

 

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In reply to dawn alderson

Re: Roadmap

by Dave Balch -
and to continue taking it forwards.
That last point moving forward is key....how/why/for whom?
How: discussion, coding, discussion about coding, testing, analytics, etc.
Why: to improve teaching/learning experiences, solve problems, and adapt to changing circumstances.
For: everyone who cares enough to contribute constructively (and also the users they represent).

Moodle HQ has it's plans (communication of which could perhaps be better - or a lot worse), as do other users. Some of these overlap with my ideas for improvements, some don't.

Even the ideas of mine that others are interested (e.g. a Map API) aren't really important enough to anyone else for them to contribute much - and as I don't have time for it at the moment, it's not made any real progress in ten months. I'd love it if others could help with it, but don't expect it to progress until some point next year. The initial positive reaction to it suggests that there's a need for it, which means that there's some chance that an improved version could be included in Moodle - but to get there I need to make it work as best I can, and demonstrate why it's a good idea.

Is this an innovative way to move forward? avoid any direction but that which includes an onus on code-as it is best? I still think the whole notion of pedagogical knowledge/enhancement needs more of an outing across the board for Moodle-including HQ.
I'm all for sound, evidenced-based decisions about what to build, but I'm not in a position to do that research myself - or force anyone else to do it.

I guess if an individual or institution wanted to give Moodle HQ or a Moodle partner some cash for more extensive testing of usability/pedagogy/etc. they'd be very happy to do it. He who pays the piper...
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In reply to dawn alderson

Re: Roadmap

by Aaron Batty -

Thanks for the measured support.

I apologize to the thread if I came off whiny, but... The problems that Moodle has are the problems that Moodle has always had. That is, I think, a valid observation, and a valid complaint. And I do not agree that it is wrong to complain after 10 years of discussions where everyone is in agreement about the problems with a product, open-source or not.

Moodle, I think, is suffering from the same kind of thing that Linux has suffered from. At the beginning, for the developers, it was a revelation. Here's this thing we can make do anything we want! Everyone should move to this for everything! Then people tried, found it okay considering the price, but found that it was too unwieldy and incompatible to be a daily driver. "The year of Linux on the Desktop" never happened, because the actual needs and desires of the userbase were never addressed, and whenever they would wade into the community and point that out, they were told to write their own OS or shut up. Ultimately, Linux remains something that uber-nerds and sysadmins use (Full disclosure: OSX is my daily driver, but I spend a lot of time in Ubuntu, as well). No matter how much easier it gets to use, it is almost impossible to get a system set up with everything the way you need it without jumping into the Terminal at least.

Similarly, the bulk of the development on Moodle seems to be focused on the needs of admins of very large installations. Of course those people are going to be the most vocal and be able to pitch in code. They're of the same ilk. But listening to them above all others is a mistake when it results in development resources being spent on things that users can't see and don't care about. If the teachers don't like it, they won't use it, and there won't be any massive installations anymore anyway.

That's where the similarity between Moodle and Linux ends. Linux can and will survive happily serving basically every webpage in the world. The users never see it, don't even know what it is, and don't care that someone had to edit conf files to get the screen to run at anything other than 640x480 (a problem I haven't had for awhile, to be fair). Moodle has to please the users first, or there will be no point to the admins.

This returns, of course, to Dawn's central theme: Who is Moodle for?

It's for teachers.

Here is a quick sketch of most teachers:

  • Very little free time
  • Need to entertain their students (most people get upset when I use that "e" word instead of the euphemistic "engage," but they are the same thing and I prefer to call things what they are)
  • Lower than average computer literacy (as much as that pains me, and as much as I wish it weren't true, and as much as I think that is a major problem)

That's the user. It's not the person setting up the server, linking to LDAP, working out repositories, checking security...

I was at a Moodle event once, where Martin was in attendance. A guy had developed some interesting load-balancing system for his university's Moodle installation and collared Martin in the hall to give him an "elevator test" presentation of his solution. Martin's eyes lit up and he said, "that's the kind of thing I come to these for; this conference just seems to be a bunch of teachers." Realizing I was within earshot, he made eye contact with me with a look of embarrassment and a little panic. I raised one eyebrow to say, "Yeah, I heard that."

Now, again, to be fair, most of the presentations at that conference sucked, and I found myself scheduled into the genius lounge after going there with a question that demonstrated that I knew more about the guts of Moodle than the guy there. I wasn't offended by Martin's comment, and he was really cool and very helpful with everyone who asked him questions. But it was clear where his priorities were.

I think that that has started to really catch up with Moodle as a project. Like I said, I can't keep my teachers interested anymore. I will continue to use Moodle because of the time I've put into it, and because I have the admin login and can change the way the whole server acts to meet my personal needs. But if I didn't have that... Well, I'd probably go back to what I used to do: Host my own elsewhere. Moodle is pretty versatile if you're an admin. For many regular teachers, it's not worth the hassle.

Who is Moodle for?

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In reply to Aaron Batty

Re: Roadmap

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Hi Aaron

I wish you hadn't started comparing the Moodle project with Linux and came up with your own diagnosis for the Linux on Desktop problem. Those are completely unrelated to the subject '[Moodle] Roadmap' and worse will take the discussion in a hyperbola. Still, if they are very important to you and you have original ideas you think are relevant to the Moodle community, please start a new thread, preferably in the Lounge.

Now from the secion:
> Similarly, the bulk of the development on Moodle seems to be focused on the needs of admins of very large installations. ...
> ...
> Who is Moodle for?
>
> It's for teachers.
I conclude that the grudge is that Moodle is made for the IT-savvy, not for the "teacher". My grudge is completely the opposite. Moodle now has the corporate user in mind, i.e. the least IT-aware user with the most facilities, and as a result moving away from its original "community", schools/colleges/unitersities.

Now I see the core problem. People have diagonally opposite requirements. Try to look at it from the position of HQ!

BTW, I enjoyed your characterization of "most teachers". Very true! And I am also continuously fighting to keep the teachers interested. But I don't claim to know exactly what the problem is, may be there are more than one.

Question. when you said "Moodle is pretty versatile if you're an admin." did you mean the superuser 'admin' in Moodle or just a person with high IT-competence?

Depending on the answer, the next statement, "For many regular teachers, it's not worth the hassle." has two answers. Everybody can't be an admin in the same Moodle instance. It is the job of the admin to look at the problem of the users and find a solution. On the otherhand, a higher IT-competence is a useful thing if you are teaching online, isn't it?
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Roadmap

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers

Hi Visvanath,

 Everybody can't be an admin in the same Moodle instance.

You know that is not the case, everyone can be an admin, just better that they are not. One idea discussed with one organization was that each trainer be an admin of their own category. They create and delete their own courses, enrol and unenrol, everything in their own categories this means the super admin really only takes care of new users and system issues. Never knew if they tried it or not, nor if it worked or not - not my problem.   My guess would be that they would have broken their Moodle very quickly, because they did not understand that much of it at the time, but after providing some initial training, they took it all on themselves - so who knows.  

As far as teachers are concerned, most teachers I know get tied up with the idea of being teachers, and they overlook that they are the other side of the coin of learner. It has been my experience that too many teachers do not see they should never stop learning, but as one wag put it, they often learn more and more about less and less until they know all about nothing. Like the left front wheel man in the car factory, He is the best left front wheel man in the world, but if his world is centred on and limited to that left from wheel, where does he get to experience anything else?  So the rest of the car becomes more than a little confronting if he is taken away from that left front wheel. Same applies to teachers. I made the foolish mistake of actually saying that to a bunch of teachers, and the temperature in the room suddenly dropped to below freezing. I am not sure which is worse though, saying it or being right..smile 


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In reply to Colin Fraser

Re: Roadmap

by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Colin

Ah, the southern hemisphere, getting warm, eh? Here "chill out" is the slogan of the season.
smile

Yes, the admin story. Thanks for elaborating, I have definitely over-simplified. Considering the fact that the term is possibly used to mean just an experienced user, we can wait for the decision.

That left front wheel teacher, I don't want to be one. It is the most vulnerable corner, if you drive on the right side of the road.
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In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera

Re: Roadmap

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers

Ahh, Visvanath, I am in Oz so we drive on the left, the proper side of the road. (We also spell words correctly and pronounce both the "u" and the "i" in Aluminium, it is not, and never should be Aloominumm, but that is an argument for the language purists and the Grammar Nazis 

....)   (**@ Mary, you have probably seen this before, but if you haven't, enjoy it..big grin )

I do mean a real text editor, and that excludes anything from any major software manufacturer. I ran into an issue with additional characters, many, many years ago that were being included when I used Notepad for a programming task. (I did not have access to the programming tools I was using, so I wrote the code in Notepad, gave it the right extension and it bombed when I tried to run it. I had been using another text editor which worked well but for some reason I used Notepad and it didn't. Swore off it ever since.) I also seem to recall that editing Moodle files in Notepad caused several issues with hidden characters some time back and I am pretty sure that would not have changed. 

My major issue right now is frustration at what seems to me to be obvious solutions to obvious problems. Moodle should be a massive black box to users, but an open book to developers. Users should be able to do basically anything with it and the tools to support that should be there, without caring what actually is going on inside Moodle to make that happen. Users should be able to just click and it happens, not click, then click, then click then maybe get what they want without a dialogue popping up that says something like "This resource already exists here, do you want to overwrite it?" Developers should be able to develop independent plugins that call from Moodle core, that allow things to happen without impinging on core code and breaking something. My other source of frustration, Users need to be a little more proactive in how they learn to use a tool and not just expect that because they have always done this it is always the best way, or only way, of doing something - avoiding the left front wheel syndrome. 

Sometimes I think I am asking too much... thoughtful

 

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In reply to Aaron Batty

Re: Roadmap

by Marcus Green -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

"Martin's eyes lit up and he said, "that's the kind of thing I come to these for; this conference just seems to be a bunch ofteachers."

He may have said those words to that individual in those circumstances, but they are entirely counter to the spirit of everything I have heard or read by him since 2003.

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In reply to Aaron Batty

Re: Roadmap

by Ken Task -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers

Hmmmm ... who is moodle for?   Thought the goal was to educate.   Shouldn't students be included? or are some still stuck in 'sage on the page' thinking?

There's a wild idea ... survey students who use Moodle or have used Moodle to get some feedback from them as well.   Not just adult students, but students of earlier stages of education.  Might even ask some knowledgeable students to be involved in the 'testing phases'.   Uhhhh, aren't they the 'clients'?   Besides that, have been reading that more and more younger folks now want to know how to code ... hmmmmmmm.  Want to be creative.  Where in Moodle can students do that?

'spirit of sharing', Ken

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In reply to Ken Task

Re: Roadmap

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers

I read this Ken,

"Want to be creative.  Where in Moodle can students do that?"

And laughed at how sad an indictment that comment really is. Schools do their best to stamp out creativity, just ask Ken Robinson. That is why we are still teaching the same core subjects now that Plato did. Different names, different emphasis, different strategies and more sophisticated perhaps, but still the same ie. maths, language and science. Plato got it wrong, and so are we, making exactly the same mistake he did. Aghh I am getting cynical here, sorry, but bottom line is that students do not need Moodle to learn coding. A good text editor, a browser, and a clear direction to move in.  

@Dawn, plugins are created by anyone who has the skill to write one, and the time. Of which I have neither.... 

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In reply to Aaron Batty

Re: Roadmap

by dawn alderson -

Aaron-hi

am feeling the luuurrrvve here mate, def feeling the vibe!

I left this thread because I was done and found it all interesting.

Now, when you say:

I was at a Moodle event once, where Martin was in attendance. A guy had developed some interesting load-balancing system for his university's Moodle installation and collared Martin in the hall to give him an "elevator test" presentation of his solution. Martin's eyes lit up and he said, "that's the kind of thing I come to these for; this conference just seems to be a bunch of teachers." Realizing I was within earshot, he made eye contact with me with a look of embarrassment and a little panic. I raised one eyebrow to say, "Yeah, I heard that.

Oh please! I will probably get mod-ed for this, but...I once saw a dog lick its balls and it looked at me knowingly-as if to say I am the dog's b*ll***s!

Now come on....hearsay is pants!

D

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In reply to Aaron Batty

Re: Roadmap

by Jez H -

"I am heavily invested in Moodle. I'm here for the foreseeable future. But I really wish I weren't. "

Hmm well its projects like Moodle which keep education and the web from falling completely under the control of greedy VC's and "big internet".

Moodle makes an effort to support users it knows it will never make a penny from, who else is doing this to the extent Moodle does?

I dearly hope I wil be working with Moodle for many years to come... And I hope in the shorter term they put more focus on UI / UX tongueout

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In reply to Dan Marsden

Re: Roadmap

by Dan Poltawski -
The Moodle conferences are usually a really great opportunity for sharing/venting/discussing issues directly with Moodle HQ staff - the conferences I have been to provide ample opportunity for this to occur.

Related to your earlier comment - there is an interesting difficulty we have to be constantly mindful of though - that those users who are sufficiently motivated to go to a Moodle conference, or contribute on moodle.org are in some ways the users we've already 'won'. 

Its important (and difficult) to balance the needs of those users we hear from constantly against those we don't hear from because they never get far enough with Moodle to be interested. We don't want to end up in an echo chamber.

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In reply to Dan Poltawski

Re: Roadmap

by dawn alderson -

my conclusion here then:

really interesting thread, I found it very engaging not least because there are many ways of seeing- diff perceptions about Moodle: its strengths and limitations. So, great discussion if nothing else-and informative too.

resting on a happy note, let us not forget this eh:

http://moodle.com/stories/

:0D

 

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In reply to Dan Poltawski

Re: Roadmap

by Jez H -

I ask a very simple question below.

Why after a decade of complaints about scroll of death can I not put two activities / resources side by side?

The problem I see with HQ is they seem to find going deeper hard. By deeper I mean refining what they have, split testing UI's. Instead HQ seem to go wider, adding more features around the edges.

In another thread about the events API Martin talks about analytics, about making Moodle your assistant.

https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=267920

Does anyone want Moodle to be their assistant? How many people do you think will use those features?

He gives a link to a page where a screen shot is shown of how you can set up an alert to tell you when 30 forum posts are made in 60 minutes:

https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Event_Monitor_specification

I looked at that and honestly thought you had lost the plot.

We have 20k students and never get that kind of engagement in forums unless they are being graded.

A big part of the reason for thst is students are not presented with a discussion / conversation which draws them in.

They are presented with a link... in a list of links... on a page of links... Still.

All this has been said before in many places by different people at different times.

If HQ listen they dont seem to act.

Sorry if I am coming across as being "anti", I dont want to upset anyone or to be seen to deride those working hard on the events monitor and other useful stuff we benefit from.

I genuinely think you need to look at what your competition are doing and specifically what it is that makes some organisations (all be it very small numbers at the moment) pay more to leave Moodle, and why one of their most requested features (assuming this was not a cynical PR move) was to build migration tools to bring courses over from Moodle.

And finally, where does HQ think it will be in five years time if it continues to spend most of its time on features it knows most people dont use at the expense of enhancing features you know everyone does use.

Where do you think that will lead?

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In reply to Jez H

Re: Roadmap

by Derek Chirnside -

Jez

Just looking at your question.

Resources side by side.

Is there a tracker item for this?

This maybe comes also under the UI issue "Make it easy to do things for the user to do stuff"

eg.  

  • Read a page, make a post using the information in it.
  • Compare two things
  • Watch a video and jot down notes in a forum post.
  • Have a forum thread you can read in total while making a post.  ie edit in place like ForumNG

I'll not comment on the rest of your post, it stands on it's own I guess.

-Derek



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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Roadmap

by Jez H -

Well course format plugins helped to a point, but they tend to be all or nothing.

For example there is a plugin that allows you to organise your page in columns, but that affects the entire page.

I don't see blocks as an answer, or course formats really. If you are going to take a "format" based approach as Moodle has it would make sense (to me at least) to apply formats at section level so users can mix and match things on the page according their requirements.

Being able choose a layout for a section in a similar way to Mahara allows for a page would be good....

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In reply to Dan Poltawski

Re: Roadmap

by Derek Chirnside -

It's now some months since I posted here asking for a little more in the way of a roadmap or at worst a return to the old roadmap style, and a few of us have had a nice little conversation but I think no outcome.

This is interesting to note:

I guess this re-iterates my feelings:

The roadmap is still a little chaotic and poorly communicated, and the whispers at moots are still one of the significant ways we actually find out about things.

THis  think is the glass half empty view.

and this from Samantha: 

"By truly valuing the opinions of its users and striving to meet them, Moodle has become a successful e-learning solution. Moodle will continue to seek out the needs of the community and work with them to implement these in its modular system. If you are a fan of the Moodle project, you are welcome to join the discussions in the Moodle.org forums, comment and vote for tracker issues, and attend a Moodle conference to experience for yourself how user-driven is the key to successful open source systems" 

http://opensource.com/life/15/4/how-moodle-manages-community-feedback

-Derek



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In reply to Derek Chirnside

Re: Roadmap

by Don Hinkelman -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Samantha's posting was on April 1st. big grin

Moodle is an open source project. So it does not have a legal department, a sales department, a marketing department, a mergers&acquisitions department and all the executive salaries required to manage that.

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In reply to Dan Marsden

Re: Roadmap

by Jez H -

We have benefited greatly from features others said should not have been prioritised in Moodle like web services and roles / capabilities, those features open the door to many things.

I know people who have presented at conferences and been listened too, the end result being zip.

The biggest complaint has aleays been the UI, Scroll of death. Why after +ten years can We not put two activities / resources side by side?

Compare the Mahara UI you (Catalyst) built six years back to what Moodle has now. Chose a layout, drag stuff where you want it, alter the settings. Students with no training create more engaging content in Mahara than hardened veterens can in Moodle.

I am no fan of "Not So Open LMS" and was underwhelmed by it overall, but throw a bunch of semi trained teachers at it and they will produce something students engage with.

Throw those same teachers at Moodle and you will get an ugly mess Students are less likely to engage with, and at the end of the day that is ALL that really matters, it is or should be the "core business" of any LMS to facilitate the easiest creation of the best courses possibe. To guide users through that process and prompt them to complete certain actions.

Even with the ability to use Bootstrap elements in HTML view it is HARD to build nice looking engaging courses in Moodle.

This is how systems are judged in vendor competition, techie feature magpies hold less sway than they may have a few years back.

Also consider where Moodles money is, its not in the tens of thousands of installs. Its not in developing countries, Moodles support for whom make it such an important application. It is with a small proportion of the community who use Moodle partners and fund development. 

I would hazard a guess that 90% of revenue lies with perhaps 3% of organisations using it, and it is those organisations who go through the kind of vendor competition process I describe above.

Unless Moodle partners can continue to beat other systems in vendor competition HQ wont get paid.

I went to visit another organisation to see how they were setup recently, they paid more to use a different solution based largely on usability. The pay off was 1700 decent quality courses created within a few weeks with comparatively little training, the adoption rate was ridiculous, staff took to it, students liked the results / engaged.

That is what this university was paying for. Happy satisfied users, students in particular. The 80% of features they didnt know or care about didnt really come into it beyond core technical requirements like API's for SRS integration.

It may well be that 20% of teahers "wish it could do x, y and z" but the other 80% are happier.

Which matters more?

What does this say about Moodle HQ (meant in jest or not, and perhaps slightly mis quoted):

"Moodle is not used well," said Dougiamas. "We think 80% of teachers use 20% of the features. That's just an educated guess... though I can tell you that probably 90% of my time is spent on the 80% you're not using."

Show me a commercial company that neglects its core business to that extent and I will show you a great opportunity for a short on the stock exchange.

How do you thing that same statement from another vendor would read?


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In reply to Jez H

Re: Roadmap

by dawn alderson -

Hello everyone...tis late here paper work-thinking and stuff.

OK.

I am able to make notes of fine detail easily...oh don't ask me why-I just can.

So, I am happy to condense this lot and when I have time....I will aim to Skype Martin...with these items...you see there is a risk of missing key points if we overun- so to speak....I am happy to list what I aim to present here first....even if this thread reaches 100 posts....it needs some sort of movement forward-otherwise it is like a merry-go-round. Now I know he is busy...but this is from the community and I know he will appreciate being kept in the loop. So, for now if this thread can move towards some sort of summary then happy to take it forward....as I say I will run through the points and present them here first.

Oh crumbs-I hope that helps-I left this once-but it begs resolution!!!

Cheers all,

Dawn 

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In reply to dawn alderson

Re: Roadmap

by dawn alderson -

Right, I have managed to do a very quick job-really ought to be a longer effort with some more interpretations maybe-but off for a curry for my Sis birthday-soon-and have other stuff lined up for weekend.

OK. I have categorised the posts-obviously there will br overlap..but the aim is to post-in a few thread-starters (sorry about that) so that you can check out my accuracy and interpretations-not all section required interpretations....spoke for themselves. Essentially, I don't think it is purposeful to list minutes like some sort of board meeting-instead what I have done gives everyone a chance to annotate/add to the categories-NOT NEW STUFF! JUST adjust for accuracy about what has gone before please. The outcome-a shared understanding smile

Then I will mail Martin or get around to chatting about the cats in the near future.

OK. new thread-strarter on its way for Category E. (loading up in reverse E-A)

HH

Dawn

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