Just to let you all know, this course is soon to be renamed 'Moodle in English' to make it consistent with other community discussion courses.
Yes, it seems logical.
I beg to disagree with my fellow countryman Séverin.
For me, this course is more "Moodle international" than "Moodle in English". It just so happens that English currently is the de facto international language. It used to be Latin, then French, and - who knows - it might be Chinese before the end of this century. It will never be Esperanto or Volapuk, as there is no future for artificial languages.
I vote for keeping the "Using Moodle" current name.
The propose name is not "Moodle for English speakers", but "Moodle [discussions] in English". Seems OK to me.
Thanks everyone for your feedback. I think Tim explains it well, with "Moodle [discussions] in English".
The "Moodle international" aspect will be highlighted on the front page of moodle.org, as there will be a link to this course in addition to a link to the community discussion course in the user's own language.
I'm also going to move all the courses on this site into one category to eliminate unnecessary category navigation, so Moodle in English will be listed together with community discussion courses in other languages.
moodle.org puts english courses and other courses into two categories:
a) "Community Discussion (in English)" https://moodle.org/course/index.php?categoryid=1
b) "Community Discussion (in other languages)" https://moodle.org/course/index.php?categoryid=3
If the language is the first hierarchy, current "Using Moodle" is just one item in the list of current "foreign" Moodle courses: https://moodle.org/course/index.php?categoryid=3. The name should too match the list of names there. If you want to be "international" with a small bias towards english, you can put the (renamed) Using Moodle at the top.
OK, there are a few exceptions like "Moodle for Business Uses". I don't understand why they can't be a part of the future "english" course.
I must have missed the second part of your post I was replying to. I was talking of the same thing, about eliminating the unnecessary categories. Sorry for that!
Now I see that https://moodle.org/course/index.php?categoryid=1 is gone and everything is under https://moodle.org/course/index.php?categoryid=3.
BTW, is this an outcome of our "epic" discussion: "Ideas needed: moodle.org improvements" https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=196302 ?
There are two things: a) the old name, b) the old navigation. I thought the whole point of renaming was to reduce the hierarchial depth.
Just noticed this morning that the moodle.org courses have been renamed as you'd said they would. This is OK, except that the "short names" just say "English" or "French", where they should be "Moodle in English" or "Moodle en français", etc. which I find rather confusing.
Could you please change this so that the short names are exactly the same as the long names?
You were very fast at spotting the course rename! The reason for having short names as just the name of the language is to keep them short for the navigation block. They also display nicely in alphabetical order compared with full names for which the word 'Moodle' is sometimes at the beginning and other times at the end.
Where do you find the short names confusing? Perhaps it can be changed.
Thanks for the explanation, Helen. I fully agree with the reasons you give for keeping the "short name" as only the language name. I guess I'll just have to adapt to the new naming scheme, is all.
I have to say that removing "Moodle" from the subject line makes emailed posts look a lot more generic.
I already groused at Mary, so this is not grumpiness, just need for clarity and an observation
I do agree with Ben! Surely the email "Subject:" line should include "Moodle", not just "English:" Wouldn't "Moodle (English):" cover all bases?
I agree, use "Moodle (English)" as the Subject shortname. "English" is much too cryptic.
Sorry that I missed this discussion. I would have wanted to weigh in.
I would vote for "Moodle (English)." It just seems really odd now when I look in my inbox and see entries like:
English: Help with Course:View
English: Quiz not showing attempts
Knowing the forum is in English isn't really useful to me, since that's how we're communicating. What's much more useful is knowing the forum is about Using Moodle. And now the word "Moodle" appears nowhere in the subject line. Thanks. - Peter
I wonder what people using the forums in other languages think? I get emails from Deutsches and Français and now English - I haven't heard of people in those two languages being unhappy with how it appears in their emails. (But I don't really understand about email filters and I just happily scroll through all emails randomly arriving, so perhaps I'm not typical)
We discussed about filtering mail in the MOOC: http://learn.moodle.net/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=25109#p30114, if you use Thunderbird or any other "intelligent" agent that is. MS Outlook is without perspective.
Let us know - we appreciate your feedback!
p.s. by the way, this is not an experiment. It is an evolution. moodle.org is not just this single course. It's a multilanguage portal for various communities. This reorganisation just reflects that.
Thanks everyone for your comments. As David says, we can change the forum notification email so that it uses the course full name. Please vote for MDLSITE-2661 if you'd like this change to be made.
Yes, it would be really better i think.
On the other hand, anyone filtering mails from Moodle forums, most likely transfers them into a mailbox or folder which has "Moodle" in the name, so having "Moodle" additionally in each subject is sort of reduntant.
Thanks for all the thanks!
I am still keeping a small portion in reserve, in case you decided to answer _my_ question: Have we discussed this in that long discussion https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=196302 1.5 years ago?
10 votes for fixing the subject line this time around, 14 votes for MDL-34160 dating back two or so years, other votes for older similar concerns.... SO glad Moodle HQ is listening.... and continues to roll out features without vetting them with the community.... oh, did I forget how we were reminded that Moodle HQ gets to do whatever it wants
How you are all enjoying a bloody sacrifice this day
Hey Marc! You are right, but man, you sound so bitter. Come on over to my place tonight. I've got a great bottle of bubbly to share. We can lighten up our spirits together.
solstice, baby.... we be busy.... but thanks for the offer.
btw, the price on the YellowTail bubbly is quite the buy, though I am partial Le Domaine for US domestic and Verve Cliquot for champagna -- budget woes and all that
The days will start getting longer (at least here), and perhaps a little extra daylight on the problem will reveal something? Nahhhhh.......
You would need to ask them Mary: "would you like an extra functionality in your headers to make things easier to search in your mail". This is a well known fact of human nature: they have never experienced something, so they don't know they miss it.
Re your comment on email filters: filters are good, and you may find a need for them sometime. About filters, cut picture this: emails arrive and I want them to go into my Moodle folder. MoodleMoot, Moodle linkedIn, Learn.Moodle (etc) and then "English:" Just not quite enough to sort on, and you can get strange things happening.
List-Id: "Moodle community sites" <email@example.com>
Still it is amazing the kind of experiments done on a live site with over a million registered users!
It is the Moodle Way, lol....
Decide on something most people don't want, roll it out, and congratulate yourself for the new feature
will the "Using Moodle" link in https://moodle.org/forums/ be changed too?
Not to mention the auto-linkinfication of <Using Moodle>, see https://github.com/moodlehq/moodle-filter_moodlelinks/blob/7c7049ba0f95995457baf35e32f4831e8f50da40/filter.php#L38. Is a tracker issue more convenient to manage this issue?
I've spent the last few days in and out of hospital, and this post escaped me.
I follow some of the Moodle forums each day (well, actually each 15 minutes or so) and they are nicely filtered. I can search on Moodle and get all the various forums. "English" MAY mean something inside Moodle.org, but not outside. I like mail coming in to be as clearly labelled as is possible.
I'd like you to reconsider.
Your screenshot reminded me that the course rename change is to come hand in hand with other UI improvements. For example, we plan to refer to courses at moodle.org as to "communities". Your screenshot would then contain "Current community > English". The navigation trail would read something like "Moodle.org > Communities > English". That is how we see this course - as a space for English speaking community of Moodle users.
Derek, You say: "For example, we plan to refer to courses at moodle.org as to "communities""
Can you tell me more? Is this a policy change? This is not just a UI change.
So we have this site (moodle.org) that I set up for information, community support and discussions about Moodle, and we have a team of people responsible for maintaining it and all the other .org, .net and .com sites, the SITES team at Moodle HQ, numbering 8 people. This team has only officially existed since June 2013, before that these sites were maintained by whoever could spare a bit of time from Moodle coding.
It's very clear to me (and I hope to you) that our sites need a big update, both visually/functionally to bring it into the current decade and informationally to be able to answer everyone's questions better and to help the world understand what Moodle is. I personally cringe every time I need to look at the current moodle.org front page on any device.
The team has been working through the issues for a long time, over a year. MDLSITE-1862 and related issues. Many of them come from tracker issues and forum comments over the years. We can't asking for community votes on every little step along the way, the process would just take too long (and it's been incredibly long already). But please understand that we do argue and discuss every little thing with the community in mind, and we have planned all along to show a prototype to key people (facilitators etc) here before going live with it.
One of these little things is the problem of all our Moodle courses on this site being called, currently, a confusing mix of "courses" and "forums", when they are in fact neither. In one discussion we decided that standardising on calling them communities would be the best way to clean up the mess and make things easier for novices. Perhaps that makes it easier to see why this course (which I named originally as Using Moodle) will be better off named as Moodle in English. Our world is multilingual and we should be inclusive. I agree it may seem a little random as it has happened in advance of the new redesign but I feel very strongly that multilingual communities are the right direction for Moodle.
Just to say that the last time I saw the front page was the very first time I came to moodle.org. You made me look. It's not really so bad as to be cringeworthy.
Derek: "English" MAY mean something inside Moodle.org, but not outside.
Exactly, this whole thing is a matter of context.
Context has not been given enough consideration in the move to removing the word "Moodle" from the moodle.org courses/forums short name. Since I do not use filtering in my email box I had not realized the problem that is mentioned by several users here.
PS.- Hospitals can sometimes be a good place for reflection, but the outside world is great too. Wishing you well, Derek.
Are you a counter-evolutionary?
P.S. I would love to post some screen shots of how the "English" thing present itself in my mail reader but stuck at the 50 kB upload limit.
Well, in some respects, yes. I think Moodle regularly falls prey to the Law of Unintended Consequences. In a complex system, small perturbations can have quite large implications. I'd call the effect that this change has made a "regression". I did not understand the reason the change to names was needed in the first place (I can surmise: someone says we have an English Hegemony, kind of like when I ask people where they are from and they say "Washington DC", or maybe someone complained, or maybe it's just time for a change . . .) Change the name of a course/forum was fine (which is neither here nor there to me) and then change the subject line of about 534 daily emails as a consequence (which is here or there to my intray) - LOUC.
I'm patient. We will either hear back about these questions in the forums here (Soon to be renamed communities I hear) and there will be change - or we will know there will not be change - or we won't hear back and there may be change or no change.
And since I am in a philosophical mood (Must be the Etomidate I had this week), here are some questions to determine if you are counter-evolutionary:
Do you believe these statements, and the answers are yes, no or huh??
- "If you don't believe in freedom of expression for those you most despise, you don't believe in freedom of expression." (Noam Chomsky)
- "Telling people not to breed because it will cause over population means that only the people who ignore the harm in what they do will be the people breeding."
- "Groups that practice unlimited altruism, unfettered by thoughts of self-preservation, will be disadvantaged in life's competition and thus eliminated over time in favor of those that limit their altruistic behavior to a smaller subset of humanity, usually their own genetic kin, from whom they receive reciprocal benefits."
- "Subsidizing genetics of those who cannot support themselves just makes them more abundant, therefore increasing the problem allegedly being fought. The negative effect accumulates in the long term, and is therefore neither compassionate nor loving thy neighbour."
- "It is discrimination to fund one genetic group over another. You cannot fight discrimination with discrimination."
Whimsically, knowing in many parts of the western world Xmas will be distracting your attention and few people will read this . . .
I would like to see e-mail resulting from forum postings preceded by [Moodle] or at least by "Using Moodle" -- Since the change they are now preceeded by "English" and that is not much help at all.
Whatever the forum name is, I'd like the word Moodle in the notification subject.
If language is also needed, append it. Moodle-Fr, Moodle-Eng or Moodle-Franc - appropriate for each forum.
Frankly, one might suppose that Subject line tagging could be implemented via "subscription options" -- whoops, that doesn't exist!
Just idle curiosty as to how many times I can pile up the word English in my subject line for incoming mail regarding this forum's posts....
Now it strikes me: For example, will "Deutschsprachiges Moodle" will soon be called "Deu" or "Ger"?
I understand that no one listens to me, but I find it almost amusing that you (VR) and Derek seem to have no sway in such matters..... reminds me of my dogs at evening's camp having a singalong....
That was hard, but justified.
In a lighter vein, to understand what English is, I realized that I need "The Difference between the United Kingdom, Great Britain and England Explained". C. G. P. Gray does exactly that. Search YouTube!
Don't forget the British Isles either, Visvanath I didn't learn the differences myself until my late 40s when I was given a Geography class to teach and had to find out. The pupils were very pleased to be able to go home and explain to their parents, many of whom (ie native British people) don't know the difference.
> Don't forget the British Isles either,
Watch the video I was talking about 1:20 - 1:30 and 2:06 - 2:18.
Whatever those terms mean, the question for me is, when I get a mail titled "English: Displaying Directories", whether I want to go to the display or not.
and now that we have changed the e-mail behavior resulting from the sudden changes producing the informative "English" subject line which impacted the functionality of likely thousands of e-mail filters around the globe, we have returned to the only slightly more functional "Moodle in English", which I suppose might be useful for those subscribing to forums in multiple languages who wish to know that this or that post is in English and not Brazilian Portuguese, while a functional subject line that might, for example, include the forum in which the item was posted, and place "Moodle" in square brackets as has perhaps become customary, will likely require a tracker ID and 5 years of study -- how I love community
The other day when the rename happened, I just clicked on the email in gmail, selected 'filter messages like these' and it suggested filtering them by 'list:"moodleforum365.moodle.org"'. This means that I've not had to redo any of the filters since the second rename.
I'd suggest investigating if whatever you use to read your email can cope with that sort of filtering, then you really don't have to worry what the subject line contains.
btw, List-ID filtering in Thunderbird is unavailable
Actually, I should have said "ill-behaved".
A Custom List-ID filter used to label with Forum name may run automatically, though it apparently will not run manually. One can then list the tag in the frame window.
Of course, as soon as Moodle changes list IDs all that will stop working....
Yay! That's much better - gotta have the word "Moodle" in there somewhere. Thanks, Helen.
Many thanks for allowing us to be a part of an evolution. (David, thanks for introducing me to the correct term https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=245526#p1067162, this has nothing to do with experiments as I wrote here:https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=245526#p1067084 !) Unlike in experiments where humans dictate the terms, in an evolution it is Mother Nature or some other invisible higher power who keeps the blueprint for herself. (My apologies if the terms are politically incorrect, I don't know better.) Once upon a time there was MDL-3175, then came MDL-34160. Two weeks ago the 'English' dawned on us which led to MDLSITE-2666, soon to be followed by a "square brackets feature request".
When I think of it, the course rename is not the evolution, it is just one manifestation of it. There are many others like, moodle.org site going down; sometimes to reappear in the newest version, sometimes not - even to the point of suffering memory loss! Or making one single silent forum, this one(!), out of three thriving forums. Or pruning the introductions to forums making them "Moodle confirm". Or adding intro-lines to the forums in the main page, well we have two lines now, 90 odd more to come. And so on.
It may sound confusing. The reason IMO is that mortals are not supposed to feel the evolution. But at the current rate it is simply unavoidable. So I am getting ready for the evolutionary steps waiting for us in 2014.
Thank you for changing the email subject to "Moodle in English." Just noticed it this afternoon because an email with the subject "[techrhet] Dictionary of American Regional English -- and playing with words" was filtered into my Moodle folder by the execrable Outlook. Being able to filter on "Moodle in English" will prevent things going in the wrong place.
Incidentally, did the subscription default change to don't send me copies? Seems I'm usually subscribed to a forum if I copy. I had to choose to be subbed here. Either way is fine.
Ben, glad to hear that you approve of the email subject name change.
Regarding the subscription default, this has not been changed.