Themes

 
 
Picture of Jason Fowler
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group DevelopersGroup Moodle Course Creator Certificate holdersGroup Moodle HQ

All of those sites prevent the input of HTML to prevent users from inserting malicious code. They don't really compare to Moodle's normal usage. It's apples and oranges.

A better example would be comparing content writing systems: Joomla, Wordpress, etc to moodle.

 
Average of ratings: -
Picture of Stuart Lamour
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group Particularly helpful Moodlers

hi jason,

i guess you have to think about how many students there are using moodle compared to content editors/creators.

as this thread highlights quite often - giving students (and most teachers!) something like a joomla/wordpress editor isn't what they need.

what do you think the percentage would be, and what do you think the different demographics needs are?

 

 

 
Average of ratings: -
Picture of Jason Fowler
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group DevelopersGroup Moodle Course Creator Certificate holdersGroup Moodle HQ

That's what Atto is for though, the new WYSIWYG editor. It allows minor, basic changes to be made, without all the extra bloat and nonsense that TinyMCE has. 

 
Average of ratings: -
Picture of Richard Oelmann
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group Particularly helpful MoodlersGroup Testers

That 'bloat and nonsense' though are the essential tools for other people!

 
Average of ratings: -
Picture of Jason Fowler
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group DevelopersGroup Moodle Course Creator Certificate holdersGroup Moodle HQ

There will be a user preference, so they can pick and choose what they need themselves...

 
Average of ratings: -
Picture of Stuart Lamour
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group Particularly helpful Moodlers

more options and choices = poor user experience though right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hick's_law

 

 

 

 
Average of ratings: -
Picture of Mauno Korpelainen
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group Particularly helpful Moodlers

It's so easy to missuse this kind of "laws".

Increasing the number of choices may increase the decision time but "one size usually does not fit all"... one theme does not fit all, one editor does not fit all, one opinion does not fit all.

onesize

 
Average of ratings:Useful (2)
Picture of Richard Oelmann
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group Particularly helpful MoodlersGroup Testers

No Stuart it doesn't

Badly designed UI creates poor user experience

Not being able to do what I want/need to do easily creates poor user experience

Options and choices, properly presented = Good user experience (in my experience!)

 
Average of ratings: -
Picture of Stuart Lamour
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group Particularly helpful Moodlers

if thats what its for, why doesn't it do that?

from a js code perspective - atto is much larger and more complex than most contenteditable solutions on the web http://codepen.io/ElijahFowler/pen/fyILl and the yui dependencies seem rather redundant.

from ui - you would be hardpressed to tell to from any other wysiwyg editor found online publishing systems such as joomle, wordpress n drupal - it is much more similar to tinymce than any of the common ui screenshots in this thread.

So its not really very modern or what our 99% of users are used to on the web these days is it? 

 
Average of ratings: -
Picture of Jason Fowler
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group DevelopersGroup Moodle Course Creator Certificate holdersGroup Moodle HQ

In my opinion, it does do that, perfcectly. Yes, there is more code in it than most contenteditable solutions on the web, but those other systems don't have to integrate with Moodle's repos etc. The YUI stuff is so we can have unified UI throughout Moodle - you may be noticing a theme in my responses here, as we are striving to unify the UI of Moodle's core components.

Yes, the UI is similar to TinyMCE, we wanted to create a cut down version of the editor that people would be familiar with.

Our users are used to TinyMCE, so it is what 99% of our users are used to - you've said so yourself.

At the end of the day, Atto is being developed, it's for the benefit of the community. It works well, is faster to load than TinyMCE and it has less of the "ugly controls" (font, colour and table) than TinyMCE. It's in core. That doesn't mean other editors won't make it in, or can't be used. 

 
Average of ratings: -
Picture of Stuart Lamour
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group Particularly helpful Moodlers

for 99% of our users moodle is not the primary thing they use on the web - the webpages in the screenshots within this thread are used by moodle users far more than moodle is.

 

 
Average of ratings: -
Tim at Lone Pine Koala Sanctuary
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group DevelopersGroup Documentation writersGroup Particularly helpful Moodlers

Your users, or students and teachers as we normally call them, don't spend all their time in the lecture hall or class room. That does not mean your university should move every class to the pub (thought that might be initially popular with the majority of users, it is not necessarily going to improve your course pass rates or educational outcomes).

 
Average of ratings:Useful (3)
Picture of Stuart Lamour
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group Particularly helpful Moodlers

hi tim,

it seems you are suggesting that learning can only occurs in the lecture hall or class room - and never from any use of the internet, social interaction or use of external media - i'd be really interested to see any data you/the OU have on this?

cheers

stuart

 
Average of ratings: -
Picture of Richard Oelmann
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group Particularly helpful MoodlersGroup Testers

No Stuart, to follow the analogy through what I think Tim is implying is that you want all learning to happen in the pub. You keep going on about how most of your users spend most of the time using tools such as social media, so Moodle apparently, in your reckoning, must become solely a social media tool, with a twitter/facebook style editor and no/limited choices for users.

Yes, students all use social media tools, of course they do - but that does not mean that those tools are the best ones for a job. All carpenters use a saw - ever tried hammering a nail in with one of those? You need a range of tools and the choice of which one is most appropriate to the task.

To bring the OU back into this debate and to follow your logic again. I would esitmate that at least 99% of your users watch the TV. Should the OU go back to only using those 1970s/1980s TV broadcasts we all remember (or those of us old enough) for their distance learning - because thats what 99% of their users use???

No - its not appropriate is it! well neither is the constant repetition that 99% of your users use social media tools so the moodle editor has to look like one of those.

Now, having thought we had reached a consensus between most of the people involved in this discussion previously. It seems to have been re-opened, with you again taking the stance in most of your posts that the only way forward is your way. I think that is probably what Damyon means when he suggests that some of your comments are not helpful to the discussion!

The way I see things, HQ have decided to go with Atto, regardless of the issues that have been put forward relating the history of what happened with the htmlarea editor and appear to be saying that HQ will not be working on TinyMCE4, that will be up to the community. So, if you really do believe in the consensus that you touted previously, please get behind those issues and start helping improve Atto and Mauno's 'community' project to get TinyMCE4 as a community plugin in rather than banging on constantly about 99% of YOUR users only use/want/need the barest minimum tools. That would be constructive comments in the discussion!

 
Average of ratings: -
It's only an avatar...
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group DevelopersGroup Documentation writersGroup Particularly helpful MoodlersGroup Testers

is it me or is everyone going bonkers? Have any of you seen the amount of cross posting threads here all talking at odds with one another, in some cases quite opposing arguments.

I don't think anyone has any real liking or disliking for a particular text editor. And I think the main reason that Atto was chosen at the last minute is so that Clean theme can be the Standard theme in Moodle 2.6 that has an editor that is fully responsive.

Lets face it everything has to be Mobile oriented now. So what Stuart is saying is correct in that we only need a few tools to add those elements we need when using a Mobile.

Anyway, I have not seen anything in Stuarts comments to suggests he is bullying or at odds with anyone, he is just expressing his opinion about something he feels very strongly about. If anything, though, I think he has been totally misunderstood. He also very rarely answers you if you are too wordy...so here is hoping this will be ignored too.

Cheers

Mary

 
Average of ratings: -
Picture of Mauno Korpelainen
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group Particularly helpful Moodlers

I think this kind of discussions are good for getting new ideas - by the way are mobiles/mobile users really setting all standards? Content management systems are going through similar process as webmail/email client/mail apps and like Danny said editor in mail.gmail.com is starting to look like Atto and TinyMCE in moodle 2.6 - see https://support.google.com/mail/answer/8260?hl=en&ref_topic=3396256

gmail

and after some clicks

gmail2

But HTML5 allows much more! HTML emails can be responsive in good and bad (phishing)

Some people like to use phone only for speaking - some send responsive emails with smart phones

http://www.emailmonks.com/design/email-newsletter-designs.html

http://blog.stamplia.com/actuality/responsive-emails-the-future-of-email-marketing-2/

So should emails be always text because 99.9 % of students send only text emails? Should email apps support only text input for the same reason?

No - but for "default tools" obviously yes.

10 years ago many people thought that the only correct way to input HTML is writing source.

5 years ago default editor of moodle did not support other browsers than IE and FF because majority of users used those browsers.

Today everybody clearly wants to hide such tools that create HTML and allow some kind of switcher button for plugin lovers - sorry for crosspostings wink

Email apps have much worse HTML/css support than mobile browsers but it does not prevent salesmen sending HTML emails - see attached pdf file smile

 

 
Average of ratings: -
Me!
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group DevelopersGroup Moodle HQGroup Particularly helpful MoodlersGroup Testers
Stuart - please don't troll. I feel you are not being very constructive/helpful in this thread at all.

 
Average of ratings:Useful (2)
Picture of Stuart Lamour
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group Particularly helpful Moodlers

if i was trolling i would have just gone with "Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistiguishable from a feature" - R. Kulawiec

as it is, i'd like you to justify that by listing anything i have posted that you think is not constructive or helpful please.

 
Average of ratings: -
It's only an avatar...
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group DevelopersGroup Documentation writersGroup Particularly helpful MoodlersGroup Testers

Hi Stuart,

I am the Moderator here and taking notes, so you better watch what you say or I'll have to delete this discussion...the whole of it. LOL

 
Average of ratings:Useful (2)
Picture of Richard Oelmann
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group Particularly helpful MoodlersGroup Testers

And, also as this thread highlights quite often - giving students and teachers the extended tools to do the job sometimes is what they need - but lets not get back into that argument, having come to some consensus about the need for BOTH a slimmed down editor for those that dont need the additional tools and the full fat one for those who do smile

And the contrast of students v content creators isn't always a valid one - the online assignment tool is very useful with the full editor (Ive had 7-8 year olds making web-pages and posters using that and Moodle Pages - and no need to teach them HTML markup smile )

 
Average of ratings: -
Picture of Danny Wahl
Re: new wysiwyg editor for moodle
Group DevelopersGroup Particularly helpful Moodlers

I disagree, all of those sites sanitize user input to prevent users from inserting malicious code.  Most of those sites actually allow limited HTML input or markdown - they just don't make it obvious immediately because it's not necessary (99% of the time) for users to have need to.

 
Average of ratings:Useful (1)