Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by D M -
Number of replies: 19

Just curious if the moderator would mind changing the name of the forum "Other stuff > Closed discussions" to "The place where we hide any posts that speak poorly about Moodle Partners"?  As it seems everything that is hidden in there deals exactly with that subject. 

Maybe if you provided an atmosphere that allows Moodle Partners to actually compete with each other instead of just covering up for the ones that receive customer complaints, Moodle will be better off in the long run.  Afterall, that would mean that Moodle would be provided in a positive hosting atmosphere to the highest percentage of people.

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In reply to D M

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Marc Grober -

The marketplace cannot prove a useful tool where there is no basis for purchasers to evaluate performance.  I am reminded of the sales pitch by a local communicatns firm, GCI, which "guaranteed" their net bandwith over cable.  When asked the nature of this guarantee, they would respond that  if you did not get the bandwidth quoted guaranteed they would try to do something about it, lol. Purchasers of webhosting largely get a pig in a poke as discussed elsewhere, and the costs of relocating are often too high to make moving from a disappointing webhost viable. Just try to negotiate for an SLA that covers your enterprise for downtime and you will get laughed out of the room.

At one time someone argued that the failure by Modle HQ to do something about the situation with MPs was duplicitous, nd as most know, that resulted in some exchanges that did not result in any sanctions as against MPs, lol. Indeed,  I am still waiting to se Moodle HQ's subatntive response to the gross failure by an MP to properly manage dozens of school sites in England (I think the most comprehensive statement I saw at the time was that MPs were doing their best to ddress a difficult situation - no comment about the fact that it was a situation of their own making.)

And, once again, we are back to the same topic. How does one obtain an apropriate webhost for Moodle? And, as we have seen over and over gain, when the matter is broached, discussion is typically shut own.

But one thing I have noticed is that alternative sources of discussion about Moodle are proliferating, and a good deal of the discussion on the allternative sources concerns the efficacy of this site. WHile I have argued with many that such diffusion is problematic, I have no way to refute the claims of censorship......

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In reply to D M

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Peter Seaman -

While I enjoy a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person, there may not be a direct correlation between criticizing the MPs and having the forum closed. There could be other, intervening factors - such as the way the criticism is conducted.  I don't see any aversion to criticism here when it's done constructively and thoughtfully.

Peter

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In reply to Peter Seaman

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by D M -

5 of 6 "closed" posts have criticisms of Moodle Partners. Seems like a pattern.

So you are saying that there are many more open cricisms of Moodle Partners that have not been closed

AND

With the exception of 1 post... that in all of the other posts on this website... there has NEVER been equally or more harsh comments made in regards to ANY subject matter.  I just want to make sure.  I only ask because I do not see them in the "closed" section.

Unless you can validate BOTH of those points... than that is by definition a "correlation".

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In reply to Peter Seaman

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Marc Grober -

I certainly agree, Peter, and am therefore distressed that while various MP key persons have made remarks that are neither constructive nor thoughtful over the years in these forums without action by Moodle HQ, but when a member of the non-MP community thoughtfully and constructively details their experiences with MPs the heavens shake.  Sauce for the goose, Peter.

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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Peter Seaman -

Marc, I do not know whether or not "MP key persons have made remarks that are neither constructive nor thoughtful over the years in these forums."  I also don't know whether or not anyone at Moodle HQ then took any action.  Do you?  Do you have some way of being able to see what goes on at Moodle HQ? You seem pretty definite about your assertion.  Then you asserted that "when a member of the non-MP community thoughtfully and constructively details their experiences with MPs the heavens shake." I frankly haven't seen that particular cause-and-effect.  What I have seen in the threads about the MPs is a lot of name-calling, ad hominem attacks, abuse, rudeness, and the like. I have seen a few cases where people "thoughtfully and constructively detail their experiences with MPs," but also a very high percentage of the former. You obviously see a different goose than I do.

Anyway, this is not a particularly productive discussion, so I'll move on to something else now. I'd recommend you and DM do the same. (If we keep this up, we'll probably be the only people left on the "Comparisons and Advocacy" forum.) Thanks.

Peter

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In reply to Peter Seaman

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Marc Grober -

Peter,  in response...

Marc, I do not know whether or not "MP key persons have made remarks that are neither constructive nor thoughtful over the years in these forums."  I also don't know whether or not anyone at Moodle HQ then took any action.  Do you? 

Yes, I do.  I would not have posted such comments if I did not.

Do you have some way of being able to see what goes on at Moodle HQ?

It seems you are drifting into being passive aggressive,  but I will note that I do not need to be a fly on the wall of Moodle HQ in as much as Moodle HQ runs Moodle.org. For the purposes of my comment, as I am sure you can understand, the actions of Moodle HQ with respect to management of Moodle.org comfirms my position.

You seem pretty definite about your assertion. 

Yes, I am.

Then you asserted that "when a member of the non-MP community thoughtfully and constructively details their experiences with MPs the heavens shake." I frankly haven't seen that particular cause-and-effect. 

You, of course, are entitled to your opinion.

What I have seen in the threads about the MPs is a lot of name-calling, ad hominem attacks, abuse, rudeness, and the like.

Very Interesting.... Could you identify where DM in this past thread has engaged in any of that?  I certainly have not seen that.  of course I do know what those terms mean, i.e. name-calling, ad hominem attacks, abuse, and rudeness.

I have seen a few cases where people "thoughtfully and constructively detail their experiences with MPs," but also a very high percentage of the former. You obviously see a different goose than I do.

Over and over apparently.

Anyway, this is not a particularly productive discussion, so I'll move on to something else now. I'd recommend you and DM do the same. (If we keep this up, we'll probably be the only people left on the "Comparisons and Advocacy" forum.) Thanks.

Apparently you don't find it productive.  Yet there are many people who write to me based on such discussions to ask my advice because open discussion in the forums has been for all intents and purposes banned.  That would seem to suggest that such discussions would be productive if they were allowed to take place, lol.

Frankly, Peter,  if everyone who thought such discussions were not productive would vacate this forum,  we mght be able to resolve some questions for those who want somw answers, rofl. Now,  I was no ruder than you (and I thought you were rude, but it doesn't bother me)  and I did no more name calling than you (you implied that I was wasting time and apparently was illiterate, lol), I was not abusive and there wasn;t a hint of ad hominem smile

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In reply to Peter Seaman

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Marc Grober -

Ahhhhh.......  while Peter wishes to avoid ad hominem, it wold appear he resorts to same in that tried and trued manner of suggesting that anyone providing criticism is doing so in a manner that is not constructive and thoughtful.  I find D M to be extraordinarily patient, thoughtful and constructive. I suppose I,  on the other hand,  have a rather different kind of reputation,  though I have been and continue to be thoughtful and constructive.....  Gee,  might it have something to do with other than whether the comments are thoughtful and constructive?

As I noted, if honest criticism and analysis is too much for this forum,  might Moodle HQ create a forum where such practice is accepted? Then all the sensitive types who sneak in the ad homina need not participate....

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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Peter Seaman -

Hi Marc:  Would you please say a bit about your Alaska Moodle Project? Is it something you are running for a school system in Alaska?  Or is it the kind of thing where say, a college teacher could buy hosting for a course she is teaching?  Are you uniquely positioned to help clients in Alaska?  I remember hearing Martin talk about using Moodle to serve remote clients in Australia - seemed like a very noble mission. Thanks.


Peter

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In reply to Peter Seaman

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Marc Grober -

I created AMP in order to introduce folk in Anchorage to moodle some years ago. The Anchorage School District at the time hosted some 50,000 students and had yet to even look at an LMS. My interest lay in the ability to extend the school beyond the school walls as so many families in Anchorage are new immigrants, desprately poor, or have no experience of education.  I thought that compbining the human resources of upper classman, economies of scale, open software and the Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend we could assemble a program that wold put a netbook in every child's hand together with network access and we cold do that at a cost that was below what the district was paying for curricular materials. My concepts were a bit too radical for the District, lol.

Nevertheless,  I created and taught a post-Bacc course in LMS at the University of Alaska Anchorage for a few years and students used AMP to explore Moodle and design materialsfor use in Moodle, as well as experiment with using Moodle to effect remote instruction and as a classroom support.

ASD now uses Moodle (though not very effectively.)  Indeed, they just upgraded to Moodle 2 and broke quite a bit, lol.  There have been at least two other more institutional foci for Moodle in Alaska. One was a school district in the Northwest of the state whose major innovator subsequently moved to Montana and is still active from there.  Another has been a state VocEd program. One university here explored Moodle and then abandoned it for BlackBoard (APU) and UAA is committed to Blackboard.  Both almost entirely use their LMS simply for posting resources.

I had demonstrated comparative use of Zotero for such purposes (or Mendeley) versus the extended capabilities of an LMS for actual online instruction to some instructors but the technical hurdles are daunting to many.  There is a technical college that was going to move to Moodle (I was an instructor there for a few quarters and was hired because I had Moodle experience) and I had assisted developing materials and supporting staff. As it turns out they had decided to eschew local assistance and contract with a portal company to offer Moodle integrated with an SIS,  but a year after the initial announcement they still did not have much in place and I don't know where they are today. 

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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Peter Seaman -

Thank you, Marc.  That's very interesting.  Have you thought about applying to become a Moodle Partner?  And let me add quickly: I have no idea how one becomes an MP, what the process of selection is, etc.  From your description I gather that your AMP provides a service that is roughly analogous to what an MP provides.

Peter

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In reply to Peter Seaman

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

This isn't entirely helpful I know.... but I have a vision of Hell freezing over - from both camps clown

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In reply to Peter Seaman

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Marc Grober -

More accurately, Peter,  AMP is a test tube for learners (though it has hosted live courses for numerous individuals over the years.) However,  my firm did explore the possibility of becoming a Moodle Partner. Unfortunately, when I asked to see the specifics of the MP agreement so that I could determine if I wanted to go forward, I was told that I could not until after I had applied and met muster, lol.  Having entered over the years dozens of "partnership" agreements (i.e. not real partnership agreements but agreements akin to the MP relationship) this was the virst instance in which I was told that I could not have access to the agreement until after I applied and was found acceptable.  As far as I am concerned, especially in as much as I already had been a member of this community for some time at that point, that put the cart before the horse.

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In reply to D M

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

I like a good argument as much as the next man... but there has to be a *point*. A lot of these discussions (and others before them for those of us old enough to remember) went round and round in circles.

A small number of people don't like/approve the Moodle Partner system (I accept entirely that most people probably don't care) - ok, we get that.

However, and I'm being cautious how I put this, the Moodle Partner system, in that it exists and is one of the primary mechanism for funding Moodle, is essentially not open for discussion.

I don't think this does and should not preclude an open discussion about where to host Moodle. After all, it's an important decision for many users, but just whinging about MPs with no obvious direction or goal is just going to result in a prod from Aunty Helen's pointy stick wink

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In reply to Howard Miller

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Marc Grober -

And yet, Howard,  I wold suggest that most of the people you might think oppose the concept of Moodle Partners don;t have a problem with that. The issues have more accurately been the specific relationship between MPs and Modle HQ (there was substantial confusion about this at one time as evidence by the fact that MD did an edit on a number of resources I had identified as stating the nature of that relationship. And those redactions included makaing it very clear that Moodle HQ is in no way responsible for the quality of the service, nor the degree of competence, of an MP.  That was a rather dramatic moment in my mind, lol.

That being said,  what prolongs many of these discussions are the attempts to demean or denigrate the persons making the statements through a variety of epithets, which, as I note in my earlier sanrky note to Peter, may be perceoved as ad homina without the poster intending same that way.  That is to day that if you state that the poster was not thoughtful or constructive and the point is of no value, you are trolling for a firestorm.

Inevitably I agree with everything you say except your conclusions, Howard, lol. Here you state, "just whining about MPs with no obvious direction or goal is just going to result in a prod from Aunty Helen's pointy stick." DM cold easily see that as yet another slap in the face....  I would.  After all,  she believess (and I agree) that she was not whining and that her posts have a goal or obvious direction.

In order to have a discussion on where to host and how to obtain an appropriate SLA the forum must allow for a lucid, cogent and informed recitation of the user's experiences.  The issue is not only MP or not; it is which webhost and why or why not, and details as to an MPs continuing failures is relevant to such choices.

Note that DM's comments underline the experience Peter suggests.  The service is fine until you have a problem. This is a common thread in discussion of webhosts,  not just MPs.  You certainly hve to agree that the measure of the effectiveness of a webhost does not lie entirely in the extent of the time things are running smoothly.  By way of example,  while DreamHost is regarded by many as a wonderful webhost,  if your domain was on a server that DH had been having issues with,  your appraisal would be les glowing, and that experience is as important as the experience of the person who did not have an issue;  both experiences relate to diferent aspects of service.

The key, I would argue, is, as Bob noted, an appropriate rubric that assists everyone in deconstructing the experience and to the extent possible removing emotion from any analysis.

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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Howard Miller -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

I don't think the situation for people like DM is unclear, Helen said it in one of those threads - try to resolve the issue with your MP and if that goes wrong contact Moodle HQ.

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In reply to Howard Miller

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by D M -

Marc hit it right on the head.  Our issues were not Moodle issues, they were general hosting issues.  If Moodle's policy is to report problems with MPs directly to Moodle, THAT SHOULD BE STATED VERY CLEARLY before signing up with a Moddle Partner.

But it is very clear that a Remote Learner review is frowned upon here if it is not positive.  I will simply be re-posting my review on a different site.  Simple.  I accept that and am happy to do so.

Needless to say, I have lost a lot of respect for Moodle after all of this.  In the eyes of a consumer... all Moodle Partners are the same. I can't stress that last sentence enough.  It might not be true, but that is how it appears to an outsider.

One bad apple can spoil the whole bunch.  Especially when that apple is a pretty big one hanging on the tree.  If I were a Moodle Partner, I would be straight-up pissed if other Moodle Partners were making me look bad.

But hey, I guess I am on your side now.  Let Remote Learner keep targeting those "sales" instead of "support" (like their employee reviews noted).  Moodle can get all the funding it needs... and I can keep my donations in my pocket as a result smile

I wish you all the best of luck and hope that Moodle can continue to grow off of its hollow endorsements of both quality and non-quality hosting providers alike.

I am just glad that I am not in that sucker crowd anymore and can enjoy just the upside like many of you. 

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In reply to D M

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Terry Shane -

@DM Thumbing your finger at the rest of the community who use Moodle Partners, as members of the "sucker crowd" undermines the very credibility you were trying to create. I had great sympathy for your situation and have been following the back and forth for a while now. I really think that you should have reread your last post before hitting the Submit button.

Being a "Moodle Partner" is a label that should only convey a limited endorsement like Schweppes Abbey Well being named the "Official Water of the 2012 Olympics" - it is not a satisfaction guaranteed, assurance of happiness.

Like any other form of sponsorship there is some sort of mutual benefit between Moodle HQ and the Partner that involves money and brand recognition with some additional advantages in the realm of exclusivity.

But being a partner does not in any way imply that Moodle HQ is responsible for the business practices of the partners any more than the IOC is responsible for the production or distribution policies of Scheweppes.

Moodle Partners will have a certain standard of knowledge and capability with respect to Moodle and are expected to meet some currently unknown minimum standards but beyond that HQ cannot, and probably should not be responsible for the way they handle customer complaints or run their business. Moodle Partners are not franchisees.

Choosing a Moodle Partner is not a magic formula that will guarantee that you will never have complaints or that the staff you deal with will always resolve issues to your satisfaction. If you are unhappy with your supplier, find a better one; there are plenty to choose from. Or better still find a constructive way to resolve the issues.

There are many highly professional suppliers who can host, support and enhance Moodle who are not Moodle Partners (they just can't say they provide "Moodle Hosting"). Simply because you are not drinking the "official water" does not make it any less thirst quenching.

The metaphor quickly breaks down of course because while everyone is selling Moodle the product you need is nowhere near as generic as water. It's naive of you or any client to assume that "all Moodle partners are the same" or that they are superior to non-Moodle partners; they are not.

More important when choosing a host is their platform, their flexibility, their SLA's, redundancy, their support policies and their existing customer base - always ask for references and follow up on them. Every client typically needs some level of customization and integration so this too is an important element to compare. The bigger the supplier, the less personal service you are likely to get and the less importance any one client is to the survival of their brand or their reputation. It's unfortunately true that with greater size, generally comes standardization and reduced flexibility. It's not always a bad thing but it's something to consider in the context of your needs.

We applied to become Moodle Partners some years ago but were told that the club was not accepting new members at that time regardless of qualifications. I completely understand that, and we have since built a successful business supporting a client base that values the service, flexibility and knowledge that we offer (including some ex-MP clients).

If Remote Learner can't or won't resolve your issues it may be 100% their fault or 100% your fault or more likely some blend between the two extremes. You appear to have found a new vendor who makes you really happy which is great. But I do have to question if your motivation here is purely for the benefit of the community, helping them avoid a landmine, or just an opportunity to get even. For that, registering mymphostsucks.com or some such other soapbox seems more appropriate even if it is not terribly constructive.

You have created a fair amount of noise and Remote Learner appears to be taking the "leave bad enough alone" approach, which is probably the most sensible way to go right now since they cannot win in any event. There's only so much grease you can give a squeaky wheel before it's better to remove it.

At the end of the day you need to find the right fit for your needs; Caveat Emptor is still a better form of insurance than relying solely on the Moodle Partner label. My mamma told me, you better shop around!

 

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In reply to Terry Shane

Re: Censorship: Would the moderator mind....

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers

mmm now we can add "patronizing" to the list of comments that peope make... I do it all the time, I know I shouldn't but sometimes it is hard not to. Most of the time it is easily avoidable.

A point I made elsewhere, we are not handling venting well, as a community. We need to do it better.

 

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