The "Wiki-like" text format which can be used in text entry forms (when the editor is disabled or in plain text resources) is now a problem, because it's rather confusing with the Wiki module (added later) and not as good as the Markdown format (added later).
We have two choices as I see it:
1. Remove the format entirely, parsing any text fields that may be using it one last time and converting them into HTML format fields.
2. Update the formatter to use the same syntax as eWiki, and automatically update all the old fields to convert their syntax to the eWiki format.
What do people think?
Hi Martin,
There is indeed a confusion between wiki-like syntax and wiki-site. Many people that first hear about Wikis gets distracted by the wiki-like syntax and do not realize that the main point about Wikis is not how you write the input, but the whole new possibility of a site being editable by users, not just the "official" author.
And a proliferation of different style syntaxes within Moodle is not a good thing, I think. Now Markdown is available, and probably there is a consensus on that it is as easy and superior in power to most wiki-like syntaxes.
I would vote for removing the wiki-like format option in text fields, eliminating the formatter. I understand that for those not using the HTML editor, it will be possible to edit text resources with Markdown syntax.
Just my opinion.
- Enrique -
There is indeed a confusion between wiki-like syntax and wiki-site. Many people that first hear about Wikis gets distracted by the wiki-like syntax and do not realize that the main point about Wikis is not how you write the input, but the whole new possibility of a site being editable by users, not just the "official" author.
And a proliferation of different style syntaxes within Moodle is not a good thing, I think. Now Markdown is available, and probably there is a consensus on that it is as easy and superior in power to most wiki-like syntaxes.
I would vote for removing the wiki-like format option in text fields, eliminating the formatter. I understand that for those not using the HTML editor, it will be possible to edit text resources with Markdown syntax.
Just my opinion.
- Enrique -
Thanks, Enrique, I'm inclined to agree, except I worry people might be getting very used to eWiki syntax and want to stick with it.
The other thing we could do is to change the Wiki so that it uses the exact same list of text formats used everywhere else, so that you could write any page of a Wiki in Moodle format, Wiki format, Markdown format or HTML ... While this would make everything very consistent and clean across Moodle I'm not sure how this would work collaboratively in a group where everyone has different preferences.
Hmm .. this needs more thinking ...
The other thing we could do is to change the Wiki so that it uses the exact same list of text formats used everywhere else, so that you could write any page of a Wiki in Moodle format, Wiki format, Markdown format or HTML ... While this would make everything very consistent and clean across Moodle I'm not sure how this would work collaboratively in a group where everyone has different preferences.
Hmm .. this needs more thinking ...
Yes, having the same possible formats for Wiki would make Moodle more consistent across modules.
Just a bit, to make sure I understand. Is it possible for each member of a team to use a different syntax to edit the same wiki page? It sounds like a nightmare to maintain. AFAIK, now the teacher sets the format for the wiki when creating it, all other users must follow the established syntax. When working in collaboration, there is always a negotiation and tradeoff of personal preferences.
- Enrique -
Just a bit, to make sure I understand. Is it possible for each member of a team to use a different syntax to edit the same wiki page? It sounds like a nightmare to maintain. AFAIK, now the teacher sets the format for the wiki when creating it, all other users must follow the established syntax. When working in collaboration, there is always a negotiation and tradeoff of personal preferences.
- Enrique -
No, everyone using a WIki couldn't use their own format for editing ... it would be impossible to maintain.
Perhaps we just need to make it so the person who starts it can choose, and on top of this the teacher who starts the activity is able to force a format for the whole activity.
Perhaps we just need to make it so the person who starts it can choose, and on top of this the teacher who starts the activity is able to force a format for the whole activity.
Perhaps the answer is to provide the ability for all the options. On the other hand, I'm willing to rarely do something draconian that forces users to a better place. Finding balance is an art.
BTW: Very little experience here but just set up my first Moodle Wiki for a graduate class in Leadership. (http://jelt.org/md/mod/wiki/view.php?id=12&userid=0&groupid=0&wikipage=Leadership+Terms) - Is there a way to make that link shorter?
BTW II: I also have been working on an open source survey system (http://birat.net). It's written in ASP, can the project be provided to Moodle?
And a proliferation of different style syntaxes within Moodle is not a good thing, I think.
I agree. Maybe the best place to have all the different styles (if they're kept) would be on some sort of "advanced" screen? Something like that was done for the window options for adding web links, if I remember right.
I agree. Maybe the best place to have all the different styles (if they're kept) would be on some sort of "advanced" screen? Something like that was done for the window options for adding web links, if I remember right.
It's only a single menu as it is ... not really an issue for most people I wouldn't think. A user preferences to set the default format would be all I'd add.
I've been keeping my head down of late what with one thing and another, however I thought I'd better chip in on this one.
I essentially have no problem with removing the wiki-like format as I think that Markdown is a better alternative if you require that functionality.
BUT... here at Glasgow we are stuck with an awfull lot of material in wiki-like format. The complete removal would be a serious barrier to the upgrade to 1.5. Again, this raises the question when will 1.5 be available? If this is going to happen we are going to have to do some re-training!!
What about a wiki-like => markdown reformatter. I don't think it would be much bother to write and would convert wiki-like to markdown as part of the upgrade process (essentially part of the database upgrade). I'm sure I could get that in over the next week or two.
Taking another tack, I would also like to comment that if these text formatters where more 'pluggable' then this wouldn't be a huge problem. One could choose from an available list of formatters and install the ones that one uses. More work
I essentially have no problem with removing the wiki-like format as I think that Markdown is a better alternative if you require that functionality.
BUT... here at Glasgow we are stuck with an awfull lot of material in wiki-like format. The complete removal would be a serious barrier to the upgrade to 1.5. Again, this raises the question when will 1.5 be available? If this is going to happen we are going to have to do some re-training!!
What about a wiki-like => markdown reformatter. I don't think it would be much bother to write and would convert wiki-like to markdown as part of the upgrade process (essentially part of the database upgrade). I'm sure I could get that in over the next week or two.
Taking another tack, I would also like to comment that if these text formatters where more 'pluggable' then this wouldn't be a huge problem. One could choose from an available list of formatters and install the ones that one uses. More work
What about a wiki-like => markdown reformatter.
I agree with Howard!
Wiki is a user-frendly format, but HTML is not. If do converting then it must be to Markdown.
Remove Wiki-format or not?
That is positive in removing:
- Dispose confusion between wiki-like syntax and wiki-module
- Don't need to provide in equality syntax of wiki text format and Wiki-module format (Wiki module that used now in Moodle is one big problem for non-english users. It's have many bugs, difficult localization, use poor style of source code ect. I think about introduce in Moodle one of another Wiki system. Maybe PmWiki? It will be need for change syntax again).
- Markdown better than Wiki and they duplicate each other
Negotive in removing:
- Users who offen use Wiki-module are suitable to use Wiki syntax in another resources (but in this case syntaxes must be alike - it's no good).
if these text formatters where more 'pluggable'
It's a very good idea!
Thanks, Howard! If you can really come up with a Wiki-Like -> Markdown reformatter in the next week or so I'll happily squeeze the upgrade into 1.5 .... this would remove the confusion from the interface.
We could then leave the wider issues about system-wide Wiki formatting, pluggable text formats and eWiki entry formats until the next version ...
We could then leave the wider issues about system-wide Wiki formatting, pluggable text formats and eWiki entry formats until the next version ...
I agree that wiki-like serves (almost) no purpose and would like to see it go. We haven't used Wiki-like format much (if all), so we won't have a problem with upgrading/reformatting, and I would like to keep it that way. So at minimum I'd like 1.5 to have an easy way to remove the wiki-like resource option from the user interface.
Martin,
Just to be absolutely clear - is your plan to remove wiki-like no matter what? I can see some fireworks in Glasgow. I must admit that I had an idea that this day would come as the format never really caught on. I am very happy to get behind Markdown, as long as that doesn't vanish in 1.6!
We have done quite a lot of 'education' of users in *not* using the HTML editor (for accessibility reasons). I need to be very clear what the way forward is .
Just to be absolutely clear - is your plan to remove wiki-like no matter what? I can see some fireworks in Glasgow. I must admit that I had an idea that this day would come as the format never really caught on. I am very happy to get behind Markdown, as long as that doesn't vanish in 1.6!
We have done quite a lot of 'education' of users in *not* using the HTML editor (for accessibility reasons). I need to be very clear what the way forward is .
Just to sign this off. Wiki-like is now gone in 1.5dev (CVS). It will automagically be converted to Markdown if you upgrade your Moodle and/or (thanks to Eloy) restore a course with wiki-like format therein.
Goodbye wiki-like format
Goodbye wiki-like format