Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Martin Dougiamas -
Number of replies: 72
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Hi all,

I want to firstly apologise for this being so late.  We've had internal discussion about new paged formats here for a year or more but publishing a spec for this has been delayed by all kinds of other things coming up. I feel bad about any perceived rush there is now.

Nevertheless, here is a proposal for some core changes to course formats that (in part) address the "scroll of death" directly while sweetening up the whole GUI and and also opening up things for 3rd party course formats.   It's based on loads of feedback and patches we've got over the years.

          http://docs.moodle.org/dev/Paged_course_formats

I don't think it's going to be controversial but we have limited time to get any of this in 2.3 and I think there is some pressure from teachers to see something like this, so I'd like to refine this quickly and get started on it.

Note that many UI pieces have already been done and just need to be integrated, like those from Davo Smith and Andrew Nicols, which is excellent.

Your comments on the spec and any refinements that should be made are very welcome.

Average of ratings: Useful (6)
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Kristian Still -

SoD - is not solely Moodle's responsibility, in fact in my coaching experience, SoD is the often the result of building / growing a course, rather than designing with the end in mind, and then constructing a learning journey. The remedy more time investment. This is where, IMHO, the grid and onetopic formats are more effective than expanding and collapsing topics. How can the course creation "flow" enable improved course design?

Have I missed Moodle's ability to connect or condition courses together. I can not see if this point has been raised in the notes/discussion pages. Is the answer smaller but connectable courses? Is this indeed what the new format offers?

I apologise in advance if it is answers your seeking rather than more questions.

Sod - A section of grass-covered surface soil held together by matted roots; turf.

SoD - a poorly designed course that presents too many matted resources requires significant scrolling.

In reply to Kristian Still

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Mark Drechsler -

Kristian,

I'll agree in many cases, but I've also seen courses right back from when I originally coined this term with huge amounts of resources and activities (usually within Universities) that I would challenge any Moodle Guru to try and redesign to cure the SoD. Yes, many scrolly courses are a result of less-than-perfect design principles, but this change will make a huge difference to many clients I work with who are constantly fighting this dreaded affliction.

Great news Martin smile

Mark.

In reply to Mark Drechsler

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Mary Cooch -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

YOU coined the term Scroll of Death? Wow - Respectbig grin (er-  I think!)

In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by ben reynolds -

Mary's post came via email, and I followed it here to find out who "YOU" was/is.
Me-tooing her respect.

In reply to Mark Drechsler

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Kristian Still -

To bat that back -

The course is simple too big? There was a midweek conversation on Twitter about whether courses themselves could be conditional. A concept that makes good learning sense. Making more manageable learning. Although I am not against alternative course formats and personally really like the tabbed format.

Uploading resourses is not learning its hosting. The forum to discuss the resources is learning. Does that bring us back to design?

In reply to Kristian Still

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

I think that it is a matter of terminology as there is always the facility of 'meta-courses'.  In the case where a 'course' is too big is the user really thinking that it is a whole course for a student with many 'modules'?  

Therefore in that situation, is it that we should facilitate a course to be broken down into many 'course modules' if needed, just in the way that complex programs can sub-divide into 'threads within the process' to speedup work and cope with complicated multifacited processes?  But we still need the starting point of the 'course'.

Cheers,

Gareth

In reply to Kristian Still

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Colin Fraser -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Testers

Kristian, conditional activities are great for what I would call microlearning, single steps through a chemical reaction for example. Conditional Topics would be great to see larger connections between things, for example, my preferred option is Pythagoras to Trigonometry, (rather than unit circle but that is not a discussion for here). But these could be considered to not just be topics, but entire courses within themselves. Conditional courses could step from successful completion of a whole semester's work into the next semester across disciplines, not just within a single subject. An excellent approach that makes a great deal of sense. The major issue would have to be how complicated would tracking that become? I would suspect the markbook would have to become a lot more sophisticated than it is right now - and a lot more user friendly.    

EDIT: Thinking about it a bit more, I can't see how the markbook could cope with Conditional courses, unless there was either an additional tracking system connected to the student rather than the course that uses markbook, or it replaced the markbook altogether. Now, that would be a challenge....

 

In reply to Mark Drechsler

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Frederic Nevers -

I fully agree with you, sometimes it's impossible to do without the SoD, regardless of how many hours you spend reorganising/rethinking your course. 

There is something else that could be done and is high on the request list from teachers at my school: grouping activities/links in a 'folder'. At the moment, the only thing that can be placed in a folder are resources (files, pictures, etc.) but as far as I know it's impossible to make folders with other items e.g. a label, a quiz, an assignment, a checklist, etc. under one heading/item. This would save a bunch of space on a lot of courses at my school.  

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to the proposed changes. 

Cheers, 
Fred 

In reply to Frederic Nevers

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

A section is a folder of resources. smile

In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Frederic Nevers -

Yes it certainly is big grin

I was referring to cases where you are left with too many resources/activities in a given section that it's not manageable/not practical. 

I suspect most Moodlers would tell me "well, just split your course into more sections then" - not always possible/practical unfortunately. Also some courses grow organically & most teachers won't have the time to re-engineer their course from scratch to have it properly organised, folders would be a simple answer to this issue (if it was drag and drop).

Anyway this is just an idea, which I think would gain quite some traction, even if it's 'bad' practice.

Cheers,
Fred 

In reply to Frederic Nevers

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

Not sure I follow what you have in mind. If you are left with too many resources/activities in a section, move them to a folder and you are left with too many resources/activities in a folder. Are you per chance thinking about folder tree? But that would require splitting folders into more folders which would not be any different from splitting the sections (except for the hierarchy although sections hierarchy is underway with the subpage module) which you dismiss as not always possible. smile 

In reply to Frederic Nevers

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Dear Frederic,

In my experience, the most confusing courses for the students were when the creating teachers put the resources in folders.  Folders are an adult way of thinking for cleanly compartmentalising and organising groups of things.  However, for students of age 18- they struggle to remember what is where when they repeatedly told 'click on x, then on y, then on z'.  It is just a replication of the file system which is why my school went to a learning platform to get away from it.

I believe that bland list of folders is simply not thinking about the design of the course and is a 'cheap and cheerful' solution.  The best courses were the ones with no folders at all and a careful limitation on information to provide the right targeted amount in the right order.

Cheers,

Gareth

In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Frederic Nevers -

Thanks for your response. While I agree with you that a bland list of folders is bad design, I still believe that aggregating resources/activities in folders is an important step for Moodle, for the following reasons:

  • "Folders are an adult way of thinking for cleanly compartmentalising and organising groups of things." 
    • While this may be true for some students, it is worth remembering that Moodle is increasingly used by the corporate sector, and universities
    • Some courses, even in primary/secondary schools are aimed at teachers e.g. resources/activities sharing between colleagues.
  • "However, for students of age 18- they struggle to remember what is where when they repeatedly told 'click on x, then on y, then on z'."
    • A lot of teachers I know use Moodle in their classroom, so while some students might be struggling with navigation using Moodle without support, I don't see this being a problem in the scenario where teachers help students navigate the course(by showing them where to go). I agree this might be more of an issue where courses are solely used outside of the classroom (not sure how many 18- teachers use Moodle this way  
    • If you have a course with lots of resources/activities, in my experience with 18- students, instead of ending up with students clicking on x, y, z to get to the resources they should use, I end up with students scrolling for ages to the resources/activities they should be using (and isn't that what we're trying to solve here ;) ) 
  • "I believe that bland list of folders is simply not thinking about the design of the course and is a 'cheap and cheerful' solution."
    • giving instructors the choice to put things in folders doesn't mean that it's the only design technique they'll use, ending up with a bland list of folders
    • sometimes folders are a necessity and not bad design.  
  • "The best courses were the ones with no folders at all and a careful limitation on information to provide the right targeted amount in the right order."
    • I agree with this, but my post was regarding those courses for which this is simply impossible to achieve for whatever reason

So in essence I think we agree on good course design principles, but we sometimes are simply unable to stick to those principles due to constraints (whatever they may be).

I still look forward to see the changes in Moodle 2.3

Cheers, 
Fred 

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

IMO, any proposal which preserves two separate week/topic formats is still halfbaked and should not be rushed into 2.3. But the proposed proposal is lacking in other respects too.

In a few days work I've created a course format with the following features and no core changes:

  • Current indicator- can be set to either one of the following
    • manual (as in the Topics format)
    • daily (from course startdate)
    • weekly (from course startdate; as in the Week format)
    • monthly (from course startdate)
    • custom interval (from course startdate)
  • Current per user - all current indicator intervals start from the user's enrollment date.
  • Default section- the section that is displayed on first open (or no stored user preferences). Default section may be set to:
    • * Current section
    • All sections (all sections will be shown by default)
    • Any of the available sections
  • Force default section - The page will always open on the default section (e.g. if the default section is set to the current section then the page will always open on the current section and will not allow other sections).
  • Show Navigation bar - either to show or not show a navigation bar which defaults to the familiar jump menu + prev/next links. The setting allows to position this navigation bar top/left/right/bottom/top and bottom.
  • Custom navigation bar - select a navigation bar format from available subplugins.
  • Sticky sections - Selected sections persist on every course view page. This could be used for interesting effects. For instance if the first and last sections are set to stick each page will show a main section wrapped by a (sticky) "header" section and a (sticky) "footer" section.
  • Delete sections - if you don't need it, delete it (from course_sections).

If I was able to do all that in a few days surely anyone in HQ could do it even better and faster, right?

Other concerns are with persisting usablility issues which seem to be constantly neglected in favor of ajax fireworks, in a system that is principled on "everything should work without javascript". It works alright but not really or not effectively usable. To take one example, the arrows for non-js changing sections order. When was the last time you tried to move a section 10 places up or down without ajax? I can jaggle the url to do that but how many other users can? A jump menu or even a clipboard approach would probably be more effective and that's just a minor code change.  

There are plenty of other things that could be improved but if we want to rush it, I think the above is feasible and could be a significant improvement. smile

Average of ratings: Useful (2)
In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Itamar, this sounds like a really good course format but is way too much to be rushing into core as a replacement for current formats in 2.3.

Please consider putting it in Moodle plugins and we can consider including such things into 2.4 (along with the infrastructure outlined in the spec to allow course formats to have their own settings).

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Bob Puffer -

I especially like the changes that simplify the UI and therefore believe strongly that the chosen course section should always be displayed (saving loads of clicks).  Essentially this would amount to an accordian format except the editing controls would be off the center column (an excellent idea).  Itamar's remarks are well conceived and hopefully will receive due consideration.

In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

The whole core usability functionality that Martin has proposed on the documents page looks really good from the stand point of being flexible to facilitate the expansion and profliferation of formats thus giving the user choice.  Perhaps that is what has been missing, to coin a phrase Moodle's 'Orange Screen of Death'.

I disagree with Kristian over collapsing topics being a worse solution to the issue than Grid / One topic.  I suppose I would being close to the work I have painstakingly done.  However, pragmatically it is about 'user choice' and 'accordian / collapsing' formats fill their own particuar niche in the market because of their simplicity.  Therefore there is room for all possible solutions as they fulfill a given user's requirement for a stated situation.  In my experience, Teachers of all disciplines want above all 'ease of use' and 'intuitive to learn'.  They do not have time for 'technocomplex' they have far more important things to worry about.

I really look forward to the first public release of Itamar's format to join the course format family - when will this be? smile

BTW, Collapsed Topics does support displaying the 'Current week / topic first' and 'Always show the current week'.

Ultimately it is a matter of providing what the non-technical user wants to suit their pedalogical way of working.  And then provide a range of viable solutions to suit as many situations as possible.

And indeed, do we now need to not support JavaScript - who doesn't use it?

Cheers,

Gareth

In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Kristian Still -

Gareth, agreed - it is about user choice and best fit to "suit their pedalogical way of working." I also agree with your point about "a range of viable solutions." I may have been a little narrow in my view - although I stand by it.

What I would like to learn more about is when features (such as the one we are talking about) become over whelming in their scope.

In reply to Kristian Still

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Dear Kristian,

Absolutely smile.  If you are asking 'What I would like to learn more about is when features become over whelming in their scope.' then the solution needs to be carefully thought out and not rushed with full input from as many non-technical users as possible.  This is exactly what Tim Hunt is stating in the discussion page of the Paged Formats development documentation and Itamar has reiterated.  We all as 'techies' need to ask the questions of the people we support and have supported especially those who use the software on a day to day basis without even worrying about commenting on this and other forums.  The real 'grass roots / coal face' community.

Cheers,

Gareth

In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Lesli Smith -

You guys crack me up.  Seriously.  I needed a good laugh today.  "Grass roots/coal face" instructor reporting for duty as requested.  wink

In all complete seriousness, though, public thanks to Gareth from many of us who have used collapsed topics and loved it precisely because it met our needs in such a simple and intuitive way.

Itamar: I am comprehending about half of what you are saying, as usual, but I trust you and Bob both so I hope if there are concerns (despite how much I really want to see this move forward) they will be addressed. 

I still crack up every time I grade papers this semester and think about your post, Itamar, on one student's question regarding her thesis.  Someone referred her to the Purdue OWL, the US English teacher's go-to site for tips on writing compositions, and you weren't impressed.  I was half-tempted to ask you to be a guest speaker in my Comp class after that, but I didn't think my students would get your sense of humor.  wink

I am super happy to see this discussion branching out into topics that are based not just on functionality, but are also based on pedagogical benefits. This development topped off by seeing MOOCH really taking off this week makes this a really good week for teachers, overall, in Moodledom.  Now if you can just get us to participate in discussions more.

In reply to Lesli Smith

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Thanks Leslie for your comment about Collapsed Topics smile.

I have loads more quips I can use / make up, like 'I love the smell of white board pens in the morning, smells like education' ;)

As well as primarily a software engineer, I was a secondary ICT (ages 11 to 18) teacher for seven years so can see how Moodle needs to be the right sort of 'spade' to shovel information and skills into the learners.  If the tool is no good then it will not help you to do the job properly.  That is why the pedagodgy and methodology must come first as a means of specifiying the requirements / user stories that feed the development process of the product and thereby facilitate the creation of the correct functionality to do the job.

Cheers,

Gareth

In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

If the tool is no good then it will not help you to do the job properly.

Beg to differ, Gareth. It should be:

If the person is no good then the tool will not help him/her to do the job properly!

Your version allows for getting away with too little by blaming the tool. But the tool is just a tool and it remains one's responsibility to do the job properly and better, with any tool one can have even if the tool was not intended by its creator to do the job. And if one can't find any way to use the tool to do a better job, it's no one's fault but one's. smile 

In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

But Itamar....

A good practitioner can use good and bad tools, but is faster with good. And I still maintain that a bad tool used by a good practitioner will not get as good results as using a good tool.  A bad practitioner using a good tool will be one of the facilitating enablers in allowing them to become good practitioners, but a bad too gets them knowwhere.  Plus, a good tool will grow and expand its user base, a bad tool will only have the practitioners switching to Blackboard ;).

Therefore, this tool enhancement needs to suited to the pedalogical way that all good education practitioners work thereby assisting in the development of best practice for trainee education practictioners.  Perhaps using other tools as examples of being forced to perform a task in a certain way that was contrary to how the practitioner wished to operate.  I was able to use this technique to convince my senior management to move from one unamed product to Moodle.  Now the member of senior management who initially preferred the former tool is now a head teacher and has just implemented Moodle in their school.

Cheers,

Gareth

In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

You have just proved my point ... please bear with me and don't take offence, none intended ...

If you can use bad rhetoric (or agrresive pr which may amount to the same thing) to get a member of senior management to replace one tool with another for the same bad practice, then the bad rhetoric is in effect a good tool for your purpose, and the new tool for trainee education can only be considered worse than its predecessor because if it fails to make the bad practice easier it will be considered worse by the senior member, but if it succeeds it should be considered worse by anyone who is concerned about bad practices.

It takes a good practitioner to use bad rhethoric effectively. But it doesn't mean that a bad practitioner of bad rhethoric who is a good practitioner of good rhetoric (whatever this may be) cannot acheive similar results. And so, it is not at all clear whether bad rhethoric is really bad or a good practitioner is really good.

Put another way, a tool would be bad for you primarly if you can't get what you want from it. But someone else may be able to get it from the same tool, in which case the tool would be good for that person.

The problem lies in your use of the terms 'good' and 'bad' as if they have some objective meaning or measure. But at the end of the day, these terms are just tools and may be used for different purposes effectively or otherwise.

With that in mind we may question your conclusion that

this tool enhancement needs to [be] suited to the pedalogical way that all good education practitioners work thereby assisting in the development of best practice for trainee education practictioners.

Who decides who get to enter the hall of fame of 'all good education practitioners'? And even if some supreme agency makes the decision and there is some guild or cult of 'all good education practitioners', is it really inconcievable that all of them just get it wrong (or one of them get it wrong and the rest just follow blindly)?

So what good is all that? smile

In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Dear Itamar,

To qualify a few points if I may, and by no means insulting:

1.  The 'senior management' decicision for which I refer was comparing Moodle with another tool where the creation uploading and maiking available a given resource took 40-45 mins with the latter tool and less than 5 with Moodle.  As exercised by a variety of practictioners of differing abilities on a 'good / bad' scale as to be qualified by point 2.

2. In the UK there exists the Department For Education (DFE) and a separate body called OFSTED.  The following is from memory, so may have a few inaccuracies.  The DFE lays down rules and regulations regarding standards of teaching and OFSTEAD provides the inspectionary body to assess these standards in education establishments of all levels: primary through to secondary (and universities where teacher training is taught).  To cut a long story short, the bodies do define the professional standards of educators and what makes / is a 'good' (1) and bad (4) practitioner.  This is based upon years of research and practice, and although evolving, is the 'objective / criteria measure' for which you speak of.  Additionally peer / senior management review is conducted on a regular basis.  I was taught and practiced the method of 'reflection' on my lessons of what was 'good', 'bad' and 'what I need to do to improve', this I repleated constantly throughout my teaching career as no single lesson is the same as the last.

Therefore there is a defined standard of what is a 'good' and a 'bad' practitioner with an overall 'supreme agency'.  Sometimes they are wrong which is why 'teaching unions' exist.

But this is diverging from the real need to provide a suite of course formats that provide what the majority of current 'good' (now that I have qualified this word) education practitioners require to facilitate a widing of their practice not what the 'geeks' want.  And the formats have the ability to adapt and evolve with education research as it progresses.  Give the customer what they want and allow them to evolve their understanding of what they want though the development of what they need - is that not current 'Agile' software development theory?

Cheers,

Gareth

In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

Seven years ago I participated in a pilot of three candidate LMS to replace WebCT. For me it was an easy choice - Moodle. Why? Because Moodle was the easiest of the three to work around the best intentions of Moodle core architects and the institution's Moodle admins. That's what I want as a customer and that's what allows me to evolve my understanding of what I want through my own development of what I need. I am my own supreme agency. (Isn't that awesome? big grin)

While Moodle 2 has grown to be not quite what many customers would want, it has in fact become more open, more flexible, easier to work around - more what I want - thanks to an amazing work on the infrastructure that can hardly be seen and appreciated on the front end but is what makes possible many exciting third-party contributions that work around the limited statndard.

So, whatever decision is made with respect to the proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4, as long as I can work around it to do something different, I don't mind it, and the post-changes Moodle will continue to be a good tool for me. smile

In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

Hopefully a couple of weeks, depending on completion of a dataform version I've been promising for ages.

I don't have an opinion (IDHAO) about whether Moodle should stop supporting non-js. For now I can do both so I don't mind the requirement (is it still an actual requirement?) .

The real problem I'm having with Moodle's javascript support is that it is sometimes too intrusive and when it doesn't work properly or to my liking its intrusiveness becomes a major issue. And there is no easy way to turn it off locally. As a user, I have to go to the profile (again too many clicks) and shut down the javascript/ajax all over (same problem with using the editor if you want to avoid its enthuiastic content filtering in only one particular label or page). As a developer, the course ajax, for example, removes/replaces the standard non-js elements and since I can't choose whether to enable/disable it in the format level, I need to trick it and move those elements somewhere else so as to keep using them.

smile

In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

Not quite turning off locally but a local plugin makes the global effect a bit easier to manage. smile

In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Ray Lawrence -

Itamar, this may be meaningful to you. Trust me,  most users don't know what ajax is. And why should they?

I like the concept though.

In reply to Ray Lawrence

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Mary Cooch -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

I prefer Vim myselfwink I confess I haven't a clue what Ajax is except that it changes your up/down arrows to a cross hair letting you drag and drop -and you have to explain this to new Moodlers...

In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

But then again the label 'Turn off the thing that changes your up/down arrows to a cross hair letting you drag and drop' is way too long for the navigation menu. So let's just call it ajax. wink

In reply to Ray Lawrence

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

Yes, but it's only a few users who do most of the work for most users and even less who do most of the more interesting work (that is, anything that has to go beyond the standard ui). And those few know or should know what the Moodle ajax setting is for.

I sometimes need to turn on/off ajax for testing new developments. I often need to turn on/off editors for entering course content which the editor mucks up (especially when I enter plain text and I don't want the editor to wrap it with html tags).

It's posted here for sharing the concept in case anyone else encounters similar issues. The plugin will be shared when I get to that. smile

In reply to Ray Lawrence

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Please see below for another explaination of AJAX, from 'http://geekandpoke.typepad.com/geekandpoke/2012/01/simply-explained.html'

In non-techy speak, AJAX speeds things up by only getting the information about what has changed on the page rather than getting the whole page when it changes.  It's like changing your T-Shirt in the middle of the day because you have spilt your Ice Cream on it rather than changing your whole outfit because of the same incident.

Attachment AJAX.jpg
Average of ratings: Useful (5)
In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Julian Ridden -

Now that is just awesome. Explains it nicely.

Doesnt sadly show her in the back room before she walked out storing all the beers on her body and getting slightly bloated before the beer magically appeared :D

Julian

Average of ratings: Useful (1)
In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Dan Poltawski -

Hi Itamar,

As part of this project we are improving the course javascript to be more robust and also add drag drop blocks back. See MDL-31052 for that if you have any input or would like to see the work in progress for that.

As a developer, the course ajax, for example, removes/replaces the standard non-js elements and since I can't choose whether to enable/disable it in the format level

Have you tried course_format_ajax_support()?

In reply to Dan Poltawski

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

Not sure I follow the 'Have you tried course_format_ajax_support()?'.

My format supports the course ajax because I want the ajax for the module actions. It's just the section ajax that conflicts with what my format is doing. If I could support only some of the ajax I would disable the sections ajax. But afacit either I support all the ajax or none. Is this correct? smile

In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Dear Itamar,

I think Dan means the callback in 'lib.php', i.e. for my format it is:

function callback_topcoll_ajax_support() {
    $ajaxsupport = new stdClass();
    $ajaxsupport->capable = true; // See CONTRIB-2975 for information on how fixed.
    $ajaxsupport->testedbrowsers = array('MSIE' => 6.0, 'Gecko' => 20061111, 'Opera' => 9.0, 'Safari' => 531, 'Chrome' => 6.0);
    return $ajaxsupport;
}

If you are having issues with the core AJAX, then it is possible to overload the functions that are contained in '/lib/ajax/section_classes.js' by writing your own versions of what you require and then doing a '$PAGE->requires->js' at the top of your 'format.php'.  I had to do this to facilitate the correct operation of section drag and drop due to the use of two tags rather than one in a given section.

Cheers,

Gareth

In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

Thanks Gareth. Dan's reference to the lib callback function was clear but only the reference. Assuming that's the only gateway from format plugins to the standard course ajax, it should have been clear that the callback was defined in my plugin so as to support the course ajax or otherwise there would have been no conflicts.

Overriding core functionality is always an option and I considered that for a split of a second when I encountered the ajax conflicts. But in many cases this option is far from desirable because the tight binding of core functionality to core settings may require a lot of duplication in the override.

One example of the latter, which I'm working on right now, is the navigation block. The navigation block should have been just a simple navigation block, that is, pass a navigation node to it and it displays a navigation menu with all the required js and css.

With such a block I could add specialized navigations along side the global navigation or in its stead (probably the latter).

But the standard navigation block is hardcodedly tied to the global navigation and plagued with questionable design assumptions such as

/**
     * The navigation block cannot be hidden by default as it is integral to
     * the navigation of Moodle.
     *

If it is so integral and important as the architects submit, how come a considerable number of users complain that it is too bloated to be useful and wish to hide or disable it in some pages or all together?

Now I have to either duplicate the navigation block or hack the core one. I will try the latter first b/c it seems that a minor modification may be sufficient for opening it up to specialized navigations. smile

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

A note on the new course settings such as mdl_course.coursedisplay.

Format settings are not course settings and should reside in their own designated table. In some cases these settings in the course level (rather than the format level) are an unnecessary constraint. Thus for instance, there is no good reason for the constraint of one section on the frontpage, other than the fact that the frontpage doesn't have course adminstration ui.

Since I let my format manage the course sections (ignoring the numsections course setting) I can have more than one section on the front page! (by adding a few lines to index.php to check for the existence of the format and activate it if exists).

smile

In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Interesting point Itamar, I think it is worth you adding your comments to http://docs.moodle.org/dev/Talk:Paged_course_formats

Cheers,

Gareth

In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Please keep the discussion here - the docs aren't much good for discussions.

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Doug Loomer -

As a Moodle admin/trainer as well as a teacher who uses Moodle every day to design and deliver learning, I am really excited by the newly proposed Paged course formats spec.  As discussed this week in another forum, a work around to the "scroll of death" that some of us in the trenches have been using employs what is in effect a poor-man's version of the "section name (as a link to the separate page, i.e. course/view.php?id=12&topic=3 or course/view.php?id=2&week=3)" feature the new spec proposes.  Having Moodle auto-build navigation links that display only one course section at a time (rather than having to create and link them by hand for each course as we have been doing) will make us very, very happy.  Thanks; we can't wait!

I would, however, respectfully like to suggest an additional core tweak that would further reduce the "scroll of death" and give teachers the opportunity to deliver learning in a more functionally and aesthetically pleasing way.

The "scroll of death" arises not only from the visibility of multiple course sections (the problem which the new spec address), but also from the fact that resource and activity links must appear in a single column list layout - the "Moodle laundry list" if you will.  The MML is not only aesthetically displeasing (the kiss of death in a world of users who expect Web 2.0 styling); it also limits the work flow functionality of Moodle.

It is currently possible to overcome the MLL by placing topic area content into a label and using tables within the label to define editable spaces.  Below is an example of using a label this way to shorten what would normally be a one column list. Note that all the links to resources/activities are really manually created links to the resources/activities because the resource/activity links generated by Moodle cannot be placed in a label.  The layout could, of course, contain graphics and narratives - all arranged in a layout (with or without table borders)  that the teacher feels will best speak to the student.

Table in a Label

A downside to this approach is that to keep resource/activity links from appearing twice in a topic area, the original resource/activity links generated by Moodle must be moved to a different topic area (often at the bottom of the course's topic areas, or in an orphaned topic area).  Of course, handling the location of resources and activities in this manner creates problems (e.g. loss of student Profile report sequence accuracy, loss of Resources block report sequence accuracy). 

These problems would be eliminted if Moodle were modified to allow teachers to hide the displaying of resource and activiey links while at the same time keeping the resources and activities available to students via shortcut linking.  They could then leave the actual resource and activity links in their appropriate course flow locations hidden from student view, and provide links to them as they choose in the label layout they deem most functional and appealing.

All the best, and thanks to those who make Moodle possible,

Doug

In reply to Doug Loomer

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Mary Cooch -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Hi Doug. Regarding two of your points - you can already link to one course section at a time if you have 2.2 -see here http://www.moodleblog.net/2011/11/25/link-to-only-one-course-section-in-moodle-2-2/ and if you do a search in the tracker, I am sure  there is an entry about making hidden items usable (as opposed to orphaned)

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In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Doug Loomer -

Thanks Mary,

Yes, I'm celebrating the fact that the new spec will allow us to set the default behavior of a course to hide all but one course section.  Very exciting!

I wasn't aware of the existing tracker on the making hidden items usable issue.  Thanks for directing me to it.  I've voted.  I am a bit disappointed that this feature request has remained unadopted since the tracker request creation in 2006.  So, let me reaffirm my earlier point that this feature is really necessary to fully eliminate the SoD. 

All the best,

Doug

In reply to Doug Loomer

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Thanks Doug.  I agree it would be pretty cool to be able to embed links like that but I think one would have to be quite expert to make it usable and maintainable.  it would be easy to make quite a maze of it, and then it might be hard for a student to find anything they saw before.

I really don't think the solution is having to "hide" the real navigation/structure so that these sort of things can be done manually by cuttting/pasting links.  The solution should be a lot more elegant than that.  Something like dragging tokens around in a HTML editor perhaps.

Anybody could tackle that now in a new course format if they wished.  Course formats don't have to use print_section() if they don't want.

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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Doug Loomer -

Hi Martin,

Thanks for taking the time to consider and respond to my suggestion that to truly do away with the SOD (and in the process make Moodle course flow and presentation much more flexible/pleasant) Moodle's laundry list layout strictures need be addressed.

While I understand your concern that in-label/in-html linking and presentation of resources and activities is not for new users of Moodle, I can assure you from several years of using the approach myself and training teachers to use Moodle that this approach is not difficult to learn/use. Linking is a basic and transferable skill for course creators.

As far as the approach being confusing for students, we have found the opposite to be true.  The layout flexibility this approach gives to teachers allows them to present course information in a more meaningful manner.  The only problems we have experienced are created by the fact that resources and activities do not have an available but hidden state.  If the option to make resources and activities available but hidden were added to Moodle (a request that has 100+ yes votes on a tracker that has been around since 2006) it would eliminate the need to hide resource and activity links in orphaned topic areas - a practice many seem to find necessary for various reasons and which does end up confusing teachers and students.

I understand, of course, that there must be some downside to adding this additional state to resources and activities.  I apologize for my ignorance in not knowing what that downside might be.

I would, by the way, be the first to agree that a truly elegant token dragging topic area layout solution would be a wonderful thing, but suspect that its arrival is not on the near horizon.  Until then, providing an available but hidden state for resources and activities would make those who don't want to relegate resources and activities to orphaned pages very happy.

I would also like to emphasize that this feature change would be purely additive.  It would not require anyone who did not want to take advantage of it to change their approach to Moodle course layout/design.

I hope you very good folks at Moodle HQ, whom I worship from afar, will give this issue further consideration.

All the best,

Doug

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In reply to Doug Loomer

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Andy Hoang -

Hey Doug

 

I'm an e-learning advisor and here we combat the scroll of death in a similar way to what you're saying. You mention that your solution results in the resources being listed twice - once as an upload and once as a link. We've found a way around this.

What we do is upload the files in to a hidden section, BUT we keep the individual files unhidden. I think this doesn't work in IE, and you might have to switch browser and or AJAX on or off, but what this means is that your resources are visible and you can link to them through the links in the table, but it prevents them being duplicated

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Dominik Lukes -

First off, any change to the course format is a good thing. If the proposal got in as outlined in the screenshots, I'd pretty much happy. But it does not go far enough:

  1. The distinction between topics and weeks should be removed. Some topics should be timed and other wouldn't. These things should be called pages or sections.
  2. There needs to be a concept of a subsection so that a number of resources, labels can be tied together.
  3. Within the subsections or at least a page, there needs to be some layout option. Kind of like the Panels module in Drupal. 
  4. There should be more navigation options. Ideally, there should be a new course navigation menu that appears on the top of the normal navigation so that the section content is easy to navigate to.

 I blogged about it recently in these posts but there's been lots of other blogs about this (many linked to here and Talk page on the Wiki). 

Regarding AJAX, the consideration that has not been raised so far is accessibility. There needs to a good alternative for screen reader users. Either an option to turn off AJAX or use WAI-ARIA. We also still run into lots of IE6 and IE7 users in the UK - some schools and government institutions like prisons. But that will eventually go away.

In reply to Dominik Lukes

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Marina Glancy -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Moodle Workplace team Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Dominik, thank you for meaningful post (unlinke many others above).

You have a very good proposal about timed topics. If somebody writes such course format plugin I'm sure we'd be happy to include it in core.

Although I'd argue about joining topics and weeks course formats. Implementation is much more difficult than it seems. During upgrade we would need to convert existing courses. And we wouldn't significally decrease the code either. Course format plugins (at least weeks and topics) do not have much code. When joined they would just have lots of if-else statements.

Subsections and layout outputs are also something that particular course format can provide. At the moment we try to focus on providing convenient API in core. But we really might think of creating a comprehensive course format with renderers (layout outputs), subsections support and even also timed topics.

Navigation is a very good point. We need to make sure that we allow course formats to define the navigation tree.

In reply to Marina Glancy

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

As I have mentioned in some (obviously not meaningful enough big grin) posts above and in other forums (see illustrations in this thread), I've written such a course format plugin with timed topics and navigation. I'm not sure what exactly is much more difficult than it seems so perhaps you could elaborate on that. The weeks and topics format are simply a different string in the 'format' field in mdl_course and a few layout lines in each format.php. The DB table of my plugin has a designated field for the interval such that 'topics' from mdl_course would be converted to 'manual' and 'weeks' to 'weekly' (I actually use int rather than varchar so as to allow a custom duration). The rendering is more or less sophisticated but just a switch. An actual API is most welcome.

The real challenge is not the format but the course section. The OU Subpage module may be a viable alternative to the course sections. I've attempted a variant which allows a choice between display inline and new page. But too much core changes are required and I'm currently a bit tied up with other things to work on that. smile

In reply to Marina Glancy

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

Dear Marina,

I thought that my posts were meaningful as I tried to stick with initial main focus on the pedaglogical side of things rather than getting bogged down with the specific implementation details?

Surely understanding what you want from an educationalists point of view first is the way forward rather than blindly implementing functionality from a software engineering point of view because that is what you 'think' the user wants.

What would be your ideal solution to the SoD please? smile

Cheers,

Gareth 

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Stuart Lamour -
Picture of Plugin developers

Hi Martin,

Back in 2009-2010 at Sussex we ran an extensive usability review of moodle (1.9 at the time), and some of the changes your document outlines our the very ones we have implemented, so it’s great to see them making it into core, and hopefully we can help by sharing some of the challenges we faced.

1. Implement paged sections

One of the solutions to our users (students, admin & tutors) usability issues with moodle was a paged format which we developed and deployed - it has been incredibly popular with users, so be great to see it as part of core.

Some tutors still prefer to have all their content on one long page, and that's fine - they use a single section with headings and horizontal rules to semantically divide content.

This summer break we plan to turn off all the scroll based formats (for consistency of user experience).

Pages was a huge win with our students.

We user tested the hell out of wireframes & clickable prototypes before developing it in moodle code, and from looking at your wireframes i can see you might be about to hit some of the same issues we found with our users, mainly :

1.1 Navigation between sections

This wireframe seems to indicate the only navigation would be through pagination pattern <previous next> (with section titles, which is great) and an extra course title bit in the middle to take you back to the list of sections.

When we user tested something similar the outcome was that users wanted a simple ‘click a section title to get to a section’ navigation visible at all times.

I’m aware the current moodle2 navigation does not support this, and its not indicated as a work package in the doc, but it’s something you may run into when testing with users, so probably need to consider.

2. Update core formats: Weekly and Topics

More sections can be added by a big "plus" icon at the bottom, and old ones can be deleted if they are empty.

Add a section & delete are big win with our content creators -

3. UI improvements for course editing mode

The goal is to make interface more user-friendly and get rid of ‘Editing mode’ when Javascript is enabled.

Again - big win for content creators.

3.1 Adding activities and resources


Giving our users pedagogical information about why using a resource or activity could aid their teaching was important. Many were unfamiliar with wiki, glossary and other common web cms tools that ‘digital natives’ (for want of a better term) could simply understand and choose to use. Moodle specific mods like the database or lesson needed this info for all users. With a large user base, and small team building this info into the interface rather than relying on training or documentation made a lot of sense.

http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-30615 looks like a big step in the right direction.

You’ll have some interesting discussions about what is the right default pedagogical info to provide for activities and how to provide it in 140 characters or less, i’m still not convinced we have the text or UI right, so the fact this has been acknowledged as a problem and that more people are working on this is great news.


3.2 Action icons


Interviews with our content curators told us the ‘editing clutter’ could be a barrier for them. We tried the hover approach, a ‘gear’ icon to show editing and lots of other patterns.

There is a forum discussion on the editing clutter we posted our users prefered solution on http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=197470&parent=864943

Video -

Would this design pattern be something others would like to see in moodle?

 

Overall there are quite a few mentions in the proposal of javascript, and reliance on it for certain functionality.

From our own lessons learned it’s important not to over-speck and rely on js, when good old fashioned html/css will do the job and often produce better, simpler interaction. Sometimes the infinite possibilities of shiny js interaction can distract from what you need - a great, simple user experience pattern. Less reliance also keeps page load times down, decrease complexity for developers, aids accessibility and makes it all more future proof.

Keep it simple, and keep tommorow in mind when developing now http://futurefriend.ly/thinking.html

So yeh, great work all round really looking forward to seeing some of this in future moodles, hope sharing our experience with some of this proves useful to you!

Cheers
Stuart Lamour
E-learning team @ sussex

 

p.s. on a technical note It’s been interesting for us developing with html5 to see the browser landscape move from ie8 and below to chrome, firefox4+, ie9, tablet and mobile becoming the predominant methods of accessing our moodle. I’d recomend using the latest html web standards for interaction (data-target, details/summary, draggable may all be relevant to your spec) and polyfills/shims as fallbacks https://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/wiki/HTML5-Cross-browser-Polyfills

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In reply to Stuart Lamour

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Thanks Stuart,

Actually the mockups were done by someone else, and leave out some of the nav (I'm just adding them in).  But 2.2 does in fact have section links in the navigation already (search admin for "navlinkcoursesections").

I like the look on your site with the section links in their own block down the right-hand side but in core Moodle we need solutions that will work whatever blocks people choose.

What are you showing on your default course page currently - just section 0?

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Please see the updated mockups.

http://docs.moodle.org/dev/Paged_course_formats

(you may need to shift-refresh the page)

A key thing I want to re-iterate is that I am trying to update Topics/Weeks formats with the minimal new stuff to make this work in 2.3, while also adding infrastructure (probably in 2.4 now?) to allow 3rd party authors to write much better course formats with all their own settings (so we can put some of those in core as well).

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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Stuart Lamour -
Picture of Plugin developers

good news on the section links, i'll check that out.

makes sense re blocks, and yes - just showing section 0 (default title Introduction) as the home for each course page.

updated wireframe is looking hot.

In reply to Stuart Lamour

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Ray Lawrence -

I'm concerned if the navigation block displaying all courses is to be used as the primary method to select a section. Users are overwhelmed by this when they are participating in many courses and thy don't (always) refer to it.

I'd like to see a more obvious way to indicate that a section is to be opened or closed e. .like the icon in the CT format. Or tabls along the top? I accept tabs are problematic, long names, many sections etc.

There are icons mising off the mockup, hopefully not to be omitted - groups, roles

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

Not quite the course format but very closely related as it pertains to displaying activities/resources in sections. Currently, standard activities are displayed as icon + linked. A recent addition 'show description' allows for displaying the activity summary after the link.

Why not inside the link and/or instead the name?

If I can hide the activity name and icon and have the summary inside the link I can put there a nice image and make the link an image button rather than a dull text link with (usually annoying) small icon. Furthermore, if I can hide the activity name and icon I can have activities on the course/front page which I can link to from somewhere else without cluttering the course/front page.

It's a fairly simple hack which would be an appreciated addition to core.

course/moodleform_mod.php
-------------------------------------------
-- line 725
-- replace with:
    $options = array(0 => get_string('choosedots'),
        1 => get_string('descriptionafterlink'),   // description after link
        2 => get_string('descriptioninsidelink'), // description inside link
        3 => get_string('descriptioninsidelinknameless');  // description inside link, no name
    $mform->addElement('select', 'showdescription', get_string('showdescription'), $options);

Then, print_sections

course/lib.php
--------------------
-- lines 1603 - 1633
-- replace with:
                    // If specified, display extra content
                    if ($content) {
                        $contentpart = '<div class="contentafterlink' .
                                trim($textclasses) . '">' . $content . '</div>';
                    }
                    
                    $activityiconhide = '';
                    $activitynamehide = '';

                    // show name and description inside link
                    if ($mod->showdescription == 2) {
                        $linkcontentpart = $contentpart;
                        $contentpart = '';
                    }

                    // show only description inside link
                    if ($mod->showdescription == 3) {
                        $activityiconhide = ' hide';
                        $activitynamehide = ' hide';
                        $linkcontentpart = $contentpart;
                        $contentpart = '';
                    }

                   // Display link itself
                    echo '<a '. $linkcss. $mod->extra. $onclick. ' href="' . $url . '">'.
                                '<img src="' . $mod->get_icon_url() .
                                '" class="activityicon'. $activityiconclass. '" alt="' .
                                $modulename . '" /> ' .
                                $accesstext . '<span class="instancename'. $activitynameclass. '">' .
                                $instancename . $altname . '</span>'. $linkcontentpart.
                        '</a>';

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Michael Penney -

The main problem I see with the UI is that "The General Section is Always Open". 

The problem is the user's focus is in the top center of the page. When they click to go to a page, they then have to look down (and maybe scroll down) to see the content they have attempted to navigate to. This ends up being frustrating.

Imagine looking at a course with many pages and having to look down from the general section each time you go from one page to another. At some point you start asking yourself why that general section is there when you've looked at it a dozen times. This distracts focus from the page you are currently on.

It's ideal from a cognitive perspective to avoid this - the learner's visual channel should be full of the current' page's content and not have to do work to filter out the already seen content in the general section smile.

I suggest this be optional, and/or treat the General Section simply as page 1 - when I click to go to Page 2, I don't need to see the General section anymore, I've already seen it.

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In reply to Michael Penney

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Michael, the planned changes will fix this - the general section is only on the main course page, not on sub pages.

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

What's the difference between the main course page and sub pages then?

If you can show a section per page then the "main course page" is just another sub page, unless you hardcode it as default which is an unnecessary and undesirable constraint (not dissimilar to the way it is coded now).

What if I do want to show the general section on every "subpage"? smile

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

I think the point is that there should not be "special general section" which you cannot highlight (because it's 0 and the course->marker is unsigned) or move. So the problem is not really fixed. smile

In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Perhaps it should be on every page then. 

Note that it's completely optional.  If it's empty then it isn't shown at all, and you just have sections 1..x.

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

It is optional by format (that is the format decides whether to show it although it is created by the course) and indeed I can make my format not show it at all but this may be confusing in some cases. I suppose the main purpose of a default section 0 is to allow the auto creation of the course news forum which by current approach goes to that section. If the section is skipped in display the news forum will be missing in section. But the news forum is not genuinely tied to section 0, so I would change the way it is added to the course and eliminate the need for the default section. smile

In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Well, the rationale for "section 0" was that there needs to be a place to put things that are OUTSIDE the main sequence of the course.  I think this requirement still holds.  The social format relies on it too.

if you want to see the work proceeding for 2.3 (which in the case of modifications to the course formats are really just small tweaks to make paging work better, since we've pushed the massive course refactoring to 2.4), look at: MDL-32476 and especially the subtask MDL-32508

I am really looking forward to seeing all the amazing course formats you guys are going to produce for 2.4!

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

Glad to hear that the massive refactoring has been pushed to 2.4.

Hopefully we could have for 2.4 a format class which could be initialized in the course view before any output is done so as to allow adjusting the course page by the format (e.g. I need to set the active url in the sections navigation block which accompanies my format, but this is currently not possible because by the time the format is included the page already outputs and does not accept further settings). smile 

In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Nate Baxley -

This is looking very good.  One thing we're looking for as we try to find a replacement for FlexPage is the ability to reference Resources in multiple sections without making mutiple copies.  Will this address that, or did I already miss it?  smile

In reply to Nate Baxley

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

It's not likely to be addressed this time around although I'd be happy to stand corrected and happier to see that implemented.

By current implementation there is a two-way reference between a section and a course module. In the section it is a one to many relation and in the course module a one to one. This means that while more than one section can hold a reference to the same course module (provided you have the ui to make it happen) the course module can "know" only one parent section.

Afaict the section field in the course module is used as a shortcut for updating the section when an action such as move or delete is applied to the course module (instead of iterating all sections). Ironically, this shortcut prevents the employment of shortcut links (or multiple references to the same course module) because the delete or move action that needs to update the containing sections will do that only for the one section that the course module knows and leave broken references in other sections. That's fairly easy to fix, but there may be other more serious such side effects.

smile

In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Gareth J Barnard -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers

So what you are saying Itamar is that:

1. A resource / activity is defined once in one section.

2. I can be referenced by shortcuts in lots of other sections.

3. If the resource / activity is changed / moved, then the shortcuts no longer work.

smile

I think Nate that this will not address the multiple reference issue, rather to initially solve the scroll of death issue.

I have also been thinking (twice this year is scary) that would addtionally be useful would be the ability to set 'layouts' like Wordpress does, like number of columns for the sections and change on a course per course basis the position of the blocks to give the user flexibility in selecting the right content for the course layout.  Do themes already do some of this?  Are 'course formats' really 'layout templates' in the web design world?

To illustrate this point I did create 'Masony Topics' (http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=188716) in the past to compress the sections dyamically when the content / page size changes. Source code on https://github.com/gjb2048/moodle-format_topmas for Moodle 2.1, but it should work with all 2.x's - to install just copy to the '/course/format' folder - it's safe (apart from using YUI's arch enemy 'jQuery') as it does not employ the database.  I have just noticed that there is now a non-jQuery version of the script at http://vanilla-masonry.desandro.com/ so could be updated.

Cheers,

Gareth

In reply to Gareth J Barnard

Re: Proposed paged course format changes for 2.3/2.4

by Itamar Tzadok -

1 and 2 but not quite 3. The shortcuts will continue to work if a resource/activity is updated or moved. If a resource/activity is deleted they will disappear from display. That's because the shortcuts are not real 'shortcut' entities but rather duplicate references to the resource/activity. It's only in the case of delete that a reference to the deleted res/act remains in the sequence of all the "other" parent sections. This is probably harmless but nonetheless undesired. Moving a res/act to a section which already holds a reference to the res/act may have side effects (don't know, haven't tried). smile