Score in Lesson Module

Score in Lesson Module

by Matt Fedorko -
Number of replies: 9

Hello.

I am using Moodle 2.1.1 and by the time I see any replies to this post, we will hopefully be using Moodle 2.2+.

I use Lessons extensively (and despite this, am constantly in an argument with the settings of Lessons -- I don't understand them, and the documentation is in shambles, and I could rant on and on...But anyway!) 

I do not want my Lessons graded, but do use Question Pages frequently in the Lessons. 

Previously, when I created a Question Page -- specifically a multiple choice type question -- I would indicate to Moodle what the correct answer to the question was by placing the number "1" in teh Score box, and putting "0"s in the other boxes.

Now when I create multichoice style questions, after I create the page, the Scores are all "0." I can tell that Moodle still knows which answer is the correct one -- color coding on my feedback, and differnet buttons based on what jumps I've told it to do -- but I have no way of knowing what the correct answer is anymore unless I preview the page and guess (or I know the material!)

This makes it extremely difficult to proofread QPs, which includes making sure the correct answer is marked as the correct answer.

Old QPs from pre-2.0 upgrade show the correct Scores (1 for right, 0 for wrong), and if I edit THOSE QPs, nothing changes. New QPs, however, even if I edit them with correct Scores after I've created them never save this information and forever list "0" as the Score for all answers. These two behaviors indicate to me that this is a bug, but I am unable to dismiss the possibility that this infuriating behavior is the result of some setting inside the Lessons modules, so I have posted what those settings are below. I will submit a bug report in 2012 if no one believes that this is behavior that is supposed to occur.

Grade: No grade

Practice Lesson: Y
Custom scoring: N
Re-Takes allowed: Y
Handling of retakes: Use max (not that it matters)
Display ongoing score: N

Allow student review: Y
Provide option to try a question again: N (don't even get me started on this ridiculous, deceitful setting -- leave this as NO. Ask me why if curious)
Max number of attempts: 2
Display defulat feedback: Y
Progress bar: No
Display left menu: Y 

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In reply to Matt Fedorko

Re: Score in Lesson Module

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Hi Matt,

Interesting "love/hate" relationship you have with Moodle's Lesson activity.wink I could go on arguing with your statements (agreeing with most and disagreeing with some others), but for the moment will restrain my answer to the "buggy behaviour" you describe.

It is clear from the Lesson settings at the end of your post that you are "shooting yourself in the foot". The Custom scoring: No setting prevents you from changing the default score values for the Answers in your MCQ questions. Set it to Yes and... you are done.

Joseph

In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Score in Lesson Module

by Matt Fedorko -

Ah, yes. The Docs is clear on how imported questions behave: "This will allow you to put a numerical point value on each answer in a question page. Answers may have negative values or positive values. Imported questions will automatically be assigned 1 point for correct answers and 0 for incorrect, though you may change this after the import." Which makes sense -- I don't want to "grade" the Lessons, so I don't really NEED a score at all, let alone a custom score -- hence my apparently erroneous choice of "No" in that menu.

However, is there some way of communicating to Moodle what the correct answer is to a question page? Quizzes are obvious (either the box is labeled "Correct Answer" for T/F, or you select a score for each anser -- 100% to the correct answer). What am I missing?

In reply to Matt Fedorko

Re: Score in Lesson Module

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Matt "However, is there some way of communicating to Moodle what the correct answer is to a question page?"

Since you don't want the lessons graded I do not understand what you mean by "communicating to Moodle what the correct answer is".

Who do you want to communicate that info to, in fact: the student or the teacher or both?

When the student attempts an MCQ question, he will get feedback as to whether he selected the correct answer or not.

And, as I said in my reply, if you set Custom scoring: No then you can put Score values of 1 for correct or 0 for incorrect in the Score field.

What more do you want?

Joseph

In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Score in Lesson Module

by Matt Fedorko -

You are correct in saying that feedback is enough of a communication to the student on whether or not they got the question right or not.

However, you are forgetting the biggest dumb oaf in the room -- Moodle itself, which is odd since it's right there in the sentence you quoted. And Moodle needs to know which options for answers are right and which are wrong. There's a crucial difference between those two pieces of information, but they're both related to the problem here.

There is behavior coded into Moodle -- color coding of the feedback, for instance -- that assumes that Moodle is somehow aware of what is and is not a correct response to a question. Somehow the instructor has to TELL Moodle what is and is not the correct response, or Moodle will not know.

Furthermore, let's say I have an instructor who does not have time to create custom feedback for QPs, or does not want to take the time or whatever. If Moodle KNOWS the correct answer, it will deliver generic "That's correct" / "That's incorrect" responses. If it does not know what the correct answer is, how can it behave appropriately? 

And I consider the rightness/wrongness of a question to be inherent to its structure, and certainly not something that should be cast off as secondary. What type of learning environment would it be with loads of polling questions that have no right or wrong responses? How would you check learning, or more importantly, how would you structure a system that can help YOU check learning? You would make questions, and you would tell the system which answers are correct answers and which answers are incorrect, something that the Lesson QPs do not easily allow me to do. 

And I take SERIOUS umbrage with your insinuation that "Custom scoring: NO" is an obvious solution to this issue. I recognize that you have correctly pointed out a setting that address the issue I am experiencing but it is not accurate that you have illuminated any aspect of Moodle's behavior that makes any sense at all; you have simply explained a lack of functionality by pointing to an illogical setting. 

In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Score in Lesson Module

by Matt Fedorko -

Furthermore, your assertion that "The Custom scoring: No setting prevents you from changing the default score values for the Answers in your MCQ questions" is flawed. In fact, this option seems to obliterate the default score values that are already there AND act as an answer key for Moodle, regardless of whether I want to change them or not.

When you decide to create a multiple choice question, the default score values that appear in the score boxes are 1s and 0s. The Moodle coders, though they have not said as much explicitly, put the "1" in the "Answer 1" Score box, and the rest as zeros, and expect you to put the correct answer in "Answer 1".  But you are able to move it around if you want.

In other words, the 0/1 score schema IS THE DEFAULT. And, as I said, if that's how I'm telling Moodle which are the correct answers and which are the incorrect answers, that's fine. I will accept the DEFAULT here because that is how it seems to behave.

If I've accepted the DEFAULT scoring (as a way to tell Moodle which is the right answer and which is the wrong answer ONLY), then I still do NOT want "custom" scoring -- I want the default -- hence the "No" in that option.

But why should Moodle then erase the DEFAULTS if Custom Scoring is set to "No"? Why should it then make the score for all of the answers "0" and still behave as if the Answer that had "1" originally (because a "1" appeared there originally, and was there when I clicked "Add a Question Page") was the correct answer and all the others were wrong? -- you can tell that Moodle still knows because it still does the green/red color coding correctly and would still show the correct default feedback if you have not put any feedback in.

In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Score in Lesson Module

by Matt Fedorko -

Okay.

I have figured out some details on Moodle's behavior that has lowered by blood pressure. Not knowing, as they say, is the worst part.

Situation #1: Custom Scoring is set to "NO" (ie, my current situation).

Moodle, in this instance, does not care what is in the score boxes beside Answers in multiple choice questions. Moodle will delete any default scores you put in there. I thought it was saving that information and then using it without showing it to you in order to determine behavior like green-color coding (right answers), and when to show two buttons (one that says "Yes, I'd like to try again" and one that says "Continue") (for wrong answers).

It turns out that this behavior, when custom scoring is set to "no," is governed by your Jumps. If you have a single answer with a jump to "Next Page," Moodle assumes that that is the correct answer, and all the answers that say "This Page" are incorrect answers.

If this is how you've organized things, it will correctly color code your feedback for correct answers.

However, when the user selects a wrong answer, it will now present them with two buttons, one that says "Yes, I'd like to try again" and one that says "Continue." However, in this scheme, BOTH buttons take you back to the Question Page to try the question again. Continuing on, in other words, is not an option. 

If you have Custom Scoring set to "No" and then make all of the jumps set to "Next Page" hoping that when the student gets the question wrong and sees the two buttons that the "Continue" button will instead take them to the "Next Page," Moodle will no longer recognize which answer is correct and which are wrong. It will suddenly color-code ALL feedback green, and only present you with a "Continue" button that will correctly take you to the next page, but will no longer provide the user with a friendly option to try the question again if they want.

You might say that the setting "Provide option to try a question again" is a way to deal with that. That way lies madness -- or, more specifically, that way lies "remember all that feedback you spent time writing? Well, the student will never, ever see it because of this setting."

Situation #2: Custom Scoring set to "YES"

Moodle will use the "Score" in the answers to determine what is the right answer and what is the wrong answer. 

In this instance, a score of "1" or greater results in green color coding of your feedback and a single "Continue" button. A score of "0" results in two buttons instead of one, and the "Continue" button will jump to whatever jump you've set that answer to.

 

As Joseph has correctly pointed out, this is the behavior I want.

I maintain, however, that this is not "custom" scoring, but "default" scoring, and that a process to communicate right and wrong answers to the Moodle system that was a little (or a lot) more straightforward would benefit everyone.

Average of ratings: Useful (1)
In reply to Matt Fedorko

Re: Score in Lesson Module

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Matt,

You have found out some of the inconsistencies of the Lesson activity in Moodle. Things can get far more complicated and myserious if for example you use the Clusters option. Besides, the interaction of the numerous settings in the Lesson makes it almost impossible to comprehend what will happen at times.

I regularly report Lesson bugs to the bug tracker, and most do get fixed, sometimes after quite some time.

What matters in the end is that you can find your way through the system and achieve your goals, as apparently you have managed to do.wink

All the best,

Joseph

In reply to Matt Fedorko

Re: Score in Lesson Module

by Chris Collman -
Picture of Documentation writers

Hi Matt,

As usual Joseph and others (me too) are on the same page when it comes to lesson being upgraded or updated.  Clusters is one, import ppt is another.  And minor things like "add question page" when you want to add a newly created content page.

I always use custom scoring.  It is too difficult for me to remember that jumps in a question that advance in the logical are scored as correct and other jumps associated with an answer are wrong.  As you discovered it does not matter what score you enter in when custom scoring is set to no, only the direction of the jumps counts when custom scoring is set to no.   A long way of saying Joeseph already said thissmile

Am I getting confuzeled with quiz?   Are you seeing an "the provide student" setting as "yes",  which I think pops up with something helpful if the student misses the quesiton (or Lesson thinks that is the case).  With all jumps set to advance in the logical order and custom scoring set to no, Lesson believe the student got the answer correct.   I can believe that with setting on feedback and hints will not work.  

MoodleSpeak is hard to change.   We were lucky to get the former  "branch table page" changed to "content page".    Like I said, I always use custom scoring and do not see the point in saying "no".    However, early in the history of Lesson code, there was no score allowed.  Advancing was the only way to score a Lesson.   So I agree with you that the name should be default scoring and the other version called "simple" or something.

Thanks for your post.

Chris

In reply to Chris Collman

Re: Score in Lesson Module

by Matt Fedorko -

I left for vacation thinking I had this all worked out, and that all I had to do was come back and turn custom scoring "on" for all of my Lessons. I finished it up for the most important class after 30 minutes or so of work (still think there should be a master Lesson settings page for each class, or a way to establish defaults). Over the break, we upgraded from 2.1.1 to  2.2.

Unfortunately, I've lost a bit of behavior I liked, specifically the appearance of a button upon getting an answer incorrect that says "Yes, I'd like to try again."

I have tried going back to the settings I had before (custom scoring = "no") in order to replicate this behavior, but it won't do it for me. 

As I said before, the "Allow a student to try a question again" setting in the Lesson's settings page means the student will not see the feedback that the instructor has written and they are just presented with buttons that say "Yes, I'd like to try it again" or "No, I want to continue on." In other words, all chances for learning opportunities after getting the question wrong are lost.

I know I was stressed out prior to the break, but I'm fairly certain I didn't imagine it -- when the student got the question incorrect, it gave me two buttons, one that said "Continue" and one that said, "Yes, I'd like to try again." The former would take you to whatever Jump you had previous prescribed, the latter would always take you to the next page.

Anyone know how to to get this behavior back?

Average of ratings: Useful (1)