Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Anna Krassa -
Number of replies: 26

Hello all, 

I would like to share a challenge that I am facing with lesson in a Moodle 2.1 installation.

We have setup a lesson with mutlichoice questions and the following settings:

  • practice lesson ( no )
  • custom scoring ( yes )
  • re-takes allowed ( yes )
  • provide option to try the question again ( yes/no ) and
  • maximum number of attempts 1

We currently facing the following problems:

1) even though maximum number of attempts is 1, students can retake each question as many time as they want (actually only the correct answer takes them to the next page). Actually we do have the same result when we disable the option for retry the question again.

2) each answer has each own responce. When multiple answers are allowed and a student gives a partially correct answer, he gets only the responce for the "wrong" answer

3) also even though custom scoring is allowed I can't really set marks as I want (I have tried to give 0.333 for example and system turned it into 1).

Has anyone else faced those problems?

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In reply to Anna Krassa

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

@Anna, just to make things clear,

  1. practice lesson ( no )
  2. custom scoring ( yes )
  3. re-takes allowed ( yes )
  4. provide option to try the question again ( yes/no )
  5. maximum number of attempts 1

what was your setting for #4 : yes or no?

Joseph

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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Anna Krassa -

Both Joseph!

Provide option to try the question again ( yes )

works exaclty the same with

Provide option to try the question again ( no ).

sad

I have test them both, they have the same result. Allow students to retake the same question after a wrong answer (or partially wrong) again and again.

It's like a broken switch...

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In reply to Anna Krassa

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Hello anna, here are the answers to your questions.

#1

"even though maximum number of attempts is 1, students can retake each question as many time as they want "

From the online Help:

Provide option to try a question again

If enabled, when a question is answered incorrectly, the student is given the option to try it again for no point credit, or continue with the lesson.

This option over-rides the Maximum number of attempts option. So, in your case, yes, students can retake a question as many times as they want, but... they won't earn any points!

#2

"When multiple answers are allowed and a student gives a partially correct answer"

The reason is that you have misunderstood the way feedback (or "response") works in Multiple Choice questions with the Multiple answers option. See my detailed explanation in this discussion.

#3

"also even though custom scoring is allowed I can't really set marks as I want "

Only integer numbers (1, 2, 3, ...) are allowed when scoring the questions. So it is quite normal that your fractional number is rounded.

If you feel the above does not quite answer your questions or if you have further questions, do post more questions, but remember this forum rule: only question per post (not 3 !).

Joseph

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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Anna Krassa -

Thanks a lot Josep, that's very helpful.

The only think I still can't understand in #1 is that when I am not providing the option to take the question again, and number of attempts is being set to 1, then why students can take the question again and again (more than once)? thoughtful

 

 

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In reply to Anna Krassa

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Hi anna,

You're right. There does seem to be a bug with the "provide option to try the question again" : it behaves the same whether set to yes or no!

I will investigate and report here.

ATB

Joseph

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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Here are my findings:

The way that those two Lesson settings:

  • Provide option to try a question again (in 2.0)
  • and Maximum number of attempts

interact leads to inconsistencies in the Lesson flow control.

I have found a simple fix, which does work in the case at hand, but may have unexpected side-effects, so use at own risk.

For Moodle 2.0 and 2.1. In file <moodle>/mod/lesson/continue.php, change line 200 from:

if (!$result->correctanswer && !$result->noanswer && !$result->isessayquestion && !$reviewmode) {

to

if (!$result->correctanswer && !$result->noanswer && !$result->isessayquestion && !$reviewmode && $lesson->review) {

Reported as MDL-29115.

Joseph

Average of ratings:Useful (1)
In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Anna Krassa -

Thanks a lot Joseph for you time and your effort.

I'll pass your answer to our admin. smile

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In reply to Anna Krassa

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

@Anna,

Any update on your problem? Did my fix solve it?

Joseph

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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Anna Krassa -

Joseph thank you for you kind interest and your hard work. 

I haven't udpated you on this, because I can't check your solution. Admin said that we have to wait until the code will be officially updated and upgrade to the new version. sad

Do you know if this has been included in v2.2? I wish for that...

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In reply to Anna Krassa

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

This bug has been fixed in moodle 2.1 (and forthcoming 2.2).

Joseph

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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Anna Krassa -

Thank you so much! kiss

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In reply to Anna Krassa

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Isabelle Langeveld -

I am on 2.6. I would like to make it possible that students take 2 attempts at each question if the first attempt is wrong. Is it possible to show the custom feedback only at the second attempt?

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In reply to Isabelle Langeveld

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

@Isabelle,

Not possible.

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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Isabelle Langeveld -

TNX, that's a clear answer. I'll just put the lessons back to 1 attempt so I am sure they see the feedback.

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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

תשובה ל: Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Irith Herman -

Dear Joseph!

Is there any fix for this problem in moodle 1.96?

thanks

Irith

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In reply to Irith Herman

Re: תשובה ל: Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

@Irith,

I suppose you mean you are using 1.9.6.

I don't think the problem described in this discussion exists in moodle 1.9.x. At least I cannot reproduce it in the most recent version of Moodle 1.9, which is 1.9.14. I advise upgrading your moodle site to 1.9.14.

Anyway, can you please describe your problem step by step?

Joseph

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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Irith Herman -

Hi Joseph!

I"m using moodle 1.9.6.

I gave the option for two tries, but you can try endless experiments
and  it has an effect on grades .

Thanks

Irith

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In reply to Irith Herman

Re: תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Sorry, I have no idea what you mean. Please provide a detailed scenario of your problem so we can help.

Joseph

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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Irith Herman -
students can retake each question as many time as they want
when a question is answered incorrectly, the student is given the
option to try it again for no point credit,
this option is not working ! The student can try 2 times(this ahat we choose in setting)
the grade is changing after more attemps
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In reply to Irith Herman

Re: תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

For the last time, please provide the full details of your Lesson settings. Other than that I'm afraid I cannot reproduce your problem and therefore cannot help.

Joseph

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In reply to Irith Herman

תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Irith Herman -

Updating Lesson in topic 2Help with Updating Lesson in topic 2 (new window)

General
 
NameRequired field
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  Enable
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  20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9  8  7  6  5  4  3  2 
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  Use mean  Use maximum 
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In reply to Irith Herman

Re: תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Unfortunately the Lesson settings you have posted do not show your actual settings, only the possible settings available.sad

For example:

Flow control

Allow student review Help with Allow student review (new window) 
  No  Yes
Does not tell us whether in your lesson settings you have set Yes or No. So the whole thing is useless. Please try again, maybe using a screen capture, or write by hand in your reply the exact settings you have actually set in your lesson. See attached example.
Joseph
Attachment 11-11-2011 08-46-06.jpg
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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Irith Herman -

2 gifs

Attachment Capture1.GIF
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In reply to Irith Herman

Re: תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: תשובה ל: Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

You said "2 gifs" but I can only see one. Never mind, I think I am getting the important information.

I have tried your settings on my moodle 1.9.14 (the latest version available for moodle 1.9).

1.- There is a contradiction between what you reported earlier and the Flow control/Display review button setting I can see on your screenshot. If Display review button is set to No (as on your screenshot), then what you wrote on Thursday, 10 November 2011, 09:10 PM "students can retake each question as many time as they want ; when a question is answered incorrectly, the student is given the option to try it again for no point credit" is not possible to happen.

2.-Those results:

0% Monday, 7 November 2011, 09:59 PM, (20 secs)
0% Monday, 7 November 2011, 09:59 PM, (43 secs)
0% Monday, 7 November 2011, 10:00 PM, (38 secs)
100% Monday, 7 November 2011, 10:01 PM, (5 mins 59 secs) 100%

simply mean that, since you set your lesson to Grade options / Student can re-take YES (as seen from your settings screenshot) the student took that lesson 3 times in succession, and finally got their answers correct on the 3rd attempt.

It seems that you are confusion the number of attempts that a student can have at a question and the number of attempts that a student can have at a Lesson.

From which I conclude that the Lesson is behaving as expected (in Moodle 1.9) in this respect.

Joseph

PS.- However, there remains a related but different bug, which I reported in MDL-23598 and still not fixed for 1.9.

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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Responces in lesson and multiple attempts

by lei lei -

Thanks a lot Josep, that's very helpful.

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