Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Tim Hunt -
Number of replies: 25
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

I gave a link to this thread http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=175930 a couple of days ago, where I asked now many people were using which question types. I've had a pretty stunning response so far, with data on over 50 million questions already. See https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_GB&hl=en_GB&key=0AvW3H1TnOxK-dEROU2dVQ2lkWDU3SlEzaXJqU2lSRUE&single=true&gid=0&output=html. Kudos to Adrianne Boyd for making the most popular third-party question type (ddmatch).

Now, I had an ulteriour motive for doing this. It is going to be very hard to make the randomsamatch question type work with the new question engine in Moodle 2.1, and so I would like to remove that question type from the standard release, and put it in contrib (and it would not be upgraded to be compatible with Moodle 2.1 unless someone volunteers, or I start feeling very generous.)

It seems that very few people are using this question type, so this won't cause problems for too many people, but if it would cause a problem for you, please make your case here.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by James Scully -
Hi, We use this type a lot. I have asked our admin to reply to your DB query request. Just registering our interest - this would cause us quite a lot of work, were we to upgrade without it. We also use HTML and images in a lot of our answers to McQs which I hope you will sort out for 2.1 A lot of Basic language quizzes (hundreds on our site) make use of picture to word matching. We can't use Moodle 2 as I understand it at the moment. Thanks James
Average of ratings: -
In reply to James Scully

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

Images in MC responses is not fixed yet, but should be before the 2.1 release.

 

The difficult part about randomsamatch is the constraint that two such questions in one quiz are not supposed to pick the same short-answer question in their random selection. If we could drop that constraint, it would probably be possible to make this qtype work - albeit not perfectly. That may well be the least bad option. It would let people upgrade, and then gradually stop using that qtype by replacing it with something else.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Hi Tim,

From the data you mention, I am not at all surprised but sad that together multichoice and true/false account for 87% of the most used question types. Those are the most basic and un-innovative question types, in my opinion. Just goes to show (in my opinion, again), that a vast majority of teachers will tend to use the most basic and easy-to-use pedagogic tools rather than try to innovate.wink

Joseph

Average of ratings: Useful (1)
In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

I don't think we can blame teachers for mostly using the tools that are easiest to understand.

Also, it is probably more important that a teacher spends time writing really good question text and feedback (even if only for a truefalse question) than that they spend time learning how to make calculated questions.

However, those of us who are into this sort of thing will go on pushing the boundaries with things like regex and pmatch. We just need to remember that it makes a big difference how simple we can make the tools to use.

Average of ratings: Useful (1)
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Ray Lawrence -

Fantastic!

I've never found a use for this question type and have never encountered a site where it's in use. Not once in over 6 years consulting and training with Moodle clients has anyone said "that's just what we need". Very happy not to have to document this when I start on our Moodle 2.1 manuals. smile Yes

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Ray Lawrence

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

Thank you Ray! If only everyone agreed wink

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Peter Ruthven-Stuart -
Picture of Plugin developers

Hello Tim,

The Random-short-answer matching question type is just what we need. We regularly make short-answer questions solely to be used in this type of question.

For example, here are some SA questions I am about to upload to a course via GIFT:

the smallest part of a chemical element{=atom}

A water molecule contains three _____s.<br>An _____ contains electrons, protons and neutrons.<br>In a nuclear reactor, one _____ splits into two and releases energy.{=atom}

particle, molecule, fragment{=atom}

electron, proton, neutron{=atom}

parts of an <b>atom</b>{=electron, proton, neutron}

Many of these type of questions can not be used in stand alone SA questions since there's not enough information for students to get the answers, but when placed in matching type questions they are possible to answer. For example, have a look at the last questions (part of an atom). This is not a viable SA question, but when in a matching type quetion where students can actually see the words "electron, proton, neutron" in a menu, it becomes a viable question.

We would much appreciate it if this question type were to remain in version 2. Removing this question type would create an awful lot of extra work.

Thanks.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Peter Ruthven-Stuart

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

What I don't get is, if you want a matching question, why not create a matching question? What is go great about the randomsamatch?

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by James Scully -
We recycle the more difficult short answer questions (you have to be able to spell accurately) as easier matching questions, then you have two forms of formative quizzes for the price of one. Just lazy really. wink
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Peter Ruthven-Stuart -
Picture of Plugin developers

Hello Tim,

"if you want a matching question, why not create a matching question?"

As James Scully mentions above, the ability to recycle questions in a new form is very important. It might sound "lazy", but it's also a very efficient use of time and resources.

Another great thing about the randomsamatch versus a standard matching question is that any one student is much less likely to get the same questions as his or her peer. With traditional match type questions the combination of 'questions' and 'answers' is fixed. On the other hand, with randomsamatch the combinations of 'questions' and 'answers is, well ... random. This also means that the same student at a later date can do the same quiz and get a different set of 'questions' and 'answers', but the quiz creator doesn't need to create multiple matching questions. Note, to achieve this, the quiz needs to be set to "Each attempt builds on the last" = No.

The attachment show the results of a student who did a quiz containing just one randomsamatch question. The combinations are taken from a bank of 25 SA questions. In the second attempt, just one of the left-right combinations was repeated. This 'same' question' is reused in a later question, giving the student further exposure to  these questions.

Attachment great-thing-about-randomsamatch.png
Average of ratings: Useful (1)
In reply to Peter Ruthven-Stuart

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

I am very happy to support 'efficient' use of time wink

Just not in the way that the randomsamatch question type does it.

Would the following alternate functionality meet your needs?

1. In the Navigation, go to Question bank -> Generate questions

2. Using the settings form, select appropriate options, for example:

Generate [100] [matching] questions based on [short-answer questions] from category [Old short-answer questions]. Put the new questions in [a new category] [Generated matching questions].

3. Build the quiz using the standard Random question type, and add 10 questions picked at random from the [Generated matching questions] category.

While this is a little more work to set up, it is simpler to implement (separating the question generation code from what happens when the quiz is attempted) and also more flexible (why not generate matching quetsions from multiple-choice questions, or glossary entries).

Average of ratings: Useful (1)
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Randy Orwin -

Tim, I am an advocate for keeping the random short-answer matching question type as well. I have found it to be very useful in the same ways as mentioned by those above. I can see how the implementation of the original question type could be difficult to code and maintain.

This idea appears to solve the problem and still give people the option to use this question type. It does add the new categories and I suppose if you wanted even more randomness you could delete the new category with questions and run the process again. BTW thanks for all of the work you do on this module! It is truly appreciated!

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by James Scully -

This seems to meet our needs very well, if I understand it correctly.

Hopefully my questions will not reveal my misunderstanding!

  • Would this functionality be available to editing teachers by default?
  • Can the settings described use existing categories to place additional questions subsequently e.g. in [the same category as used before]?
  • Would the upgrade be able to successfully include (upgrade) current questions and quizzes generated the old way? (some  form of script, I suppose)

Please do implement the ability to select from glossary entries, this would be a very helpful ability, especially if it recognised/discriminated between glossary categories.  Should I make this a formal feature request? (and databases? or is that too cheeky by half)

Thank you for taking the time to figure out something for a feature that relatively few of us seem to use, and not only that but extend the principle in such an imaginative way.approve

Average of ratings: -
In reply to James Scully

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
  1. The feature would be available to anyone with capability moodle/question:add, I expect, so yes, for Editing teachers.
  2. Yes, other options like same category would be implemented.
  3. Upgrade, not sure. Hmm...

I can't take any credit for the Glossary idea. Joseph Rezeau has already implemented it (as a block plugin, I think). I just think it should be possible to do things like that in a way that integrates better with the rest of the question bank.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Peter Ruthven-Stuart -
Picture of Plugin developers

Tim,

Thanks for your understanding.

I think your suggested alternate functionality would meet our needs. I can also see some added advantages with having these randomly generated questions exist as real questions, as opposed to the 'semi-real' status of randomsamatch questions.

How about adding to this functionality by making it possible to generate questions from multiple categories, and or sub-categories?

Also, the ability to generate questions from other question types and even glossary entries is very attractive. How about also from Database activity entries? That would be awesome!

On the other hand, not being able to upgrade current questions and quizzes generated the old way would be disappointing. How about some kind of conversion process? Tricky I guess since it would not only be a matter of converting randomsamatch questions, but also 'informing' old quizzes using these randomsamatch question types what newly converted questions to use.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Hi Tim,

Reviving this discussion because on my latest moodle 2.1 test site running Moodle 2.1.1+ (Build: 20110907) Random short-answer matching just does not work!

See MDL-29382.

Joseph

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Ravi Vare -

Hi Tim and Joseph,

I am facing same problem for 'RandomSAMatching'. (Plz. See Screenshot)

Moodle 2.1.1+ (Build: 20110907).

I agree/think- This Q. Type has not been upgraded for Moodle 2.1

Best regards,

Ravi

P.S.

I am trying 'Export glossary to Quiz'.

Attachment randomsamatch.JPG
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Amanda Fickes -

I also use this question type a lot. I believe it worked in Moodle 2.0, but not when I had short answer questions with images.  I now have Moodle 2.1 and it's not working at all.   I used it in Moodle 1.9 all the time. I have a lot of quizzes where students need to learn to identify a long list of items, such as trees, so having it randomly pick 10 each time they take the quiz is a very nice feature.  If I only use the random question feature, it's hard as short answer questions aren't great as there are, for example, several correct "common names" for a tree species.  The randomness is a great feature so that each student has to do their own work, also.  

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Didier Jodin -

Tim : "It seems that very few people are using this question type".

Like other contributors to this discussion, I strongly disagree... The random short-answer matching questions were a very useful way for learners to check and to improve their knowledge (for example, in my case, vocabulary, translation of phrases, attribution of a work of art to the right artist...).

I understand it's problematic for programmers to settle that in M2, but from the teachers' point of view, it would be a real disappointment if that type of questions should disappear...

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Didier Jodin

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Ravi Vare -

Yes, i agree with Didier.

'Random Short-Answer Matching Question Type' is very essential.

It is seen in Moodle 2.1. But not working properly.

I am using Joseph's Export Glossary to Quiz a lot.

Without this Q. Type, I can't use 'Glossary to Quiz' with full flavour.

So, i request - Active RandomSAMatching.

TIA

Ravi

P.S.

I wait for Upgradation (1.9 to 2.1) because of

i) RandomSAMatching Q.

ii) Quiz sort by age [ http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=164547 ]

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Ravi Vare

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by K Kirkwood -

Any updates on this issue? sad Would love to see this Q typed added back in or modification that allows banking and scrambling in the current Match type question.

I must say I do prefer the idea of making 10 short answer Q that can be scrambled into 252 dif 5Q matching activities, than actually trying to create the 252 dif combinations in the standard Matching question format.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to K Kirkwood

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers

No. Sorry. It continues to be a lurking embarassment for me.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Tim Hunt

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Ferdinand Delapuz -

Hi Tim!

Have been fond of using random SA matching qtype for creating my exams since the earlier versions of moodle.  I was saddened when I found out that it no longer works in moodle 2.1+.  This thread confirmed this situation.

But  I was happy to read your suggestion last June 6, 2011.  I think it is the good alternative.

Anyway, thanks for these information.  But it would be the best if this qtype somehow becomes available by you in current moodle version or the later.

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Ferdinand Delapuz

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Mike Jackson -

I would love to see some way to generate matching question sets from short answer questions. Any updates?

Average of ratings: -
In reply to Mike Jackson

Re: Can we remove the Random short-answer matching question type from Moodle 2.1?

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

@Mike,

You can vote for MDL-27414 "Upgrade the randomsamatch question type to the new question engine".

Joseph

Average of ratings: -