Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Mary Cooch -
Number of replies: 36
Larawan ng Documentation writers Larawan ng Moodle HQ Larawan ng Particularly helpful Moodlers Larawan ng Testers Larawan ng Translators
I'm using IE8 and when I go to the QA site it just jumps around all the time - if you know what I mean -it's really frustrating. I'm sure I saw this mentioned a few months ago but I can't recall the terms used or the explanation/outcome.
Average of ratings: -
In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Joseph Rézeau -
Larawan ng Core developers Larawan ng Particularly helpful Moodlers Larawan ng Plugin developers Larawan ng Testers Larawan ng Translators
... like jumping beans, you mean ?
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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Mary Cooch -
Larawan ng Documentation writers Larawan ng Moodle HQ Larawan ng Particularly helpful Moodlers Larawan ng Testers Larawan ng Translators

YES! like that cool

In reply to Mary Cooch

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In reply to Deleted user

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Greg Scales -
For me, at least, it "jumps around" in all themes in both IE7 and FF. I haven't yet tested with Opera and Safari. It's the side menus on the left. It's almost certainly a CSS problem. Basically, the menus have at least one BR between each LI and if you wait a bit or mouse over the menu, it "jumps" to the correct view (without the BR). From what I've seen, anyway.
In reply to Greg Scales

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Frank Ralf -
Gosh, that's really weired! I tested it with IE6 and the site is totally unaccessible (see screenshot).
Attachment Moodle20_IE6.png
In reply to Frank Ralf

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Joseph Rézeau -
Larawan ng Core developers Larawan ng Particularly helpful Moodlers Larawan ng Plugin developers Larawan ng Testers Larawan ng Translators
Frank,
MSIE 6 was a terrible version of a not too good browser anyway. It should no longer be used.
Joseph
In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Frank Ralf -
Hi Joseph,

Of course you're right. Actually, I don't use it, it's only still installed on my computer kindat

But in fact IE 6 is still used by 17 % of Internet users, especially in Asian countries (http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=2 ).

Frank
In reply to Frank Ralf

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Mauno Korpelainen -

Most likely nobody has tried to create that theme for Old Browsers ( = IE ) yet - but it might be time to simply stop supporting IE6 in moodle 2. No more IE hacks - never again wink

( partly joking - the situation in Asia/China and in some African countries has not changed even if Microsoft itself has tried to kill IE6 with recent campaigns )

And implementing YUI2/YUI3 scripts obviously has some issues with IE...

Attachment nomoreie6.jpg
In reply to Frank Ralf

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Danny Wahl -
I can say, in the most unscientific manner, as someone living in China that my experience has been that users still use IE6 primarily because of banking. The government (circa IE6 era) had lots of web apps written for their sites: gov't, banking, etc... that have not since been updated and still only work with IE6.

It's actually becoming a bigger problem here as a larger middle class is developing with more disposable income- they're buying new computers that come preloaded with IE7 or IE8 making these sites unavailable.

Essentially this problem will resolve itself, nobody will have IE6 on their computer anymore soon enough, either via a hardware/software purchase, or a hardware crash.
In reply to Danny Wahl

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In reply to Deleted user

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Frank Ralf -
IMO it's not a question of actively supporting IE6 but of adhering to the acknowledged principles of Development:Progressive enhancement and Development:Unobtrusive Javascript.

Quote:
"Moodle now supports the Yahoo! user interface library which includes unobtrusive JavaScript as one of its primary design goals"


In reply to Deleted user

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Andrew Davis -
Charging extra for IE6 compatibility is an interesting idea. Sort of a "burdensome technology" tax. I haven't heard of someone doing that before but it kind of makes sense. Helps fund the extra development time required and highlights what is otherwise a hidden cost.
In reply to Andrew Davis

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In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Mauno Korpelainen -

It's one of those strange bugs that nobody has been able to fix yet - http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-22372

obviously some javascript of moodle (yui/ajax/navigation/blocks ???) has some event handler that causes delay until you move mouse... if javascript is disabled IE loads css without problems and if javascript is enabled css might be loaded twice: first the "normal way" - then all css breaks (in IE) and you need to move mouse over side blocks and content to get rest of css rendered... right ?

In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Greg Scales -
In further testing, the side panel jumps about in IE7, FF2, and IE8. It does NOT jump about in FF3.5, Google Chrome 4.1, or Opera 10.5. It must be a js thing as mentioned above.
In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Sam Hemelryk -
Hi all,

I'm just chiming in on this one with a few interesting points as I do like where this discussion is going and all the great points that are coming out about the love affair that used to exist with IE6.

First up the standardold theme is going to be converted to a theme that works on IE6. It will use the old table layout rather than floating divs and will be based on the standard theme to ensure that we don't end having to maintain another theme just for IE6. This task is currently on my todo list as part of MDL-21862.

Second there is the now the ability to select a theme for modern browsers and a theme for old browsers. This should be of great use when using Moodle in an environment where some or all users are using IE6 or 7 (old browsers so far) as a theme that is known to work can be selected for them specifically without having to compromise the experience of users with standard supporting reasonably bug free browsers.

Third there is a myriad of problems leading to the numerous issues still being experienced within IE 7/8. The more I look into this the more I stumble upon. As I think Mauno mentioned the peek-a-boo bug is a big one at the moment, however there are several others as well, for those who have xml strict headers turned on you will have noticed the GOUC (Glimpse Of Unstyled Content) bug, and the dock causing jumps when blocks have been docked are just two more.
Fingers crossed solutions to all of these can found within the next week or two

And finally a BIG thank you to everyone who is helping out with the themes ngiti whether it is reporting issues, helping with the documentation, aiding in diagnosing problems. I'm not going to name people individually you all know who you are. It is all GREATLY appreciated.

Cheers
Sam


In reply to Sam Hemelryk

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In reply to Deleted user

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Danny Wahl -
Wow. No offense, but IE 5? You really need to reevaluate how your university handles aging tech. I haven't heard anyone say they need support for IE 5 in years, and frankly (I'm not a Moodle dev) I think it's pretty unreasonable.

Every school I've attended, or worked for has had minimum requirements for using their system, some more aggressive than others, but mandating support for systems that are over 12 years old...
In reply to Deleted user

Re: Why does Moodle 2.0 keep jumping about?

ni Bob Puffer -
With all that said (mostly about my least-favorite application on earth), you're still way more aggressive in adopting 2.0 then most people I know.
In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Moodle 2.0 jumping about in IE bug fixed!

ni Helen Foster -
Larawan ng Core developers Larawan ng Documentation writers Larawan ng Moodle HQ Larawan ng Particularly helpful Moodlers Larawan ng Plugin developers Larawan ng Testers Larawan ng Translators
A big thank you to Sam for fixing this bug for all IE 7 and 8 users. approve Please see MDL-22826 for further details.
In reply to Helen Foster

Re: Moodle 2.0 jumping about in IE bug fixed!

ni Frank Ralf -
I don't want to spoil the party but the bug is still there in IE6

And as stated above IMHO Moodle 2.0 should at least degrade gracefully for users of IE6.
In reply to Frank Ralf

Re: Moodle 2.0 jumping about in IE bug fixed!

ni Mauno Korpelainen -

It's a different "BUG", Frank!

Sam fixed the "onMouse even jumping YUI IE bug" and creating a moodle 2.0 theme that can be used with IE6 just needs a volunteer themer to design an IE6 theme that does not use any features of modern browsers...

In reply to Mauno Korpelainen

Re: Moodle 2.0 jumping about in IE bug fixed!

ni Petr Skoda -
Larawan ng Core developers Larawan ng Documentation writers Larawan ng Peer reviewers Larawan ng Plugin developers
Anybody who demands IE6 compatibility should spend some time trying to implement it ngiti I am sure everybody would give up and instead upgraded a few thousand PCs instead.
In reply to Petr Skoda

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In reply to Deleted user

Re: Moodle 2.0 jumping about in IE bug fixed!

ni Frank Ralf -
Like it or not, but the fact is, that IE6 is still the prevalent browser in most Asian countries (see screenshot) and Africa. And I know a lot of schools elsewhere which still use old PCs with old operating systems and outdated browsers.

And even worldwide IE6's market share is that of Opera, Safari and Chrome combined.

So sniffing at IE6 is IMO a developer and U.S./Europe centric perspective.

Even if you don't follow this rationale we might get into serious trouble regarding Accessibility if we rely too much on bleeding edge JavaScript technology for such basic functions as menus and navigation.

Attachment StatCounterGlobal_Browser_statistics_Asia.png
In reply to Frank Ralf

Re: Moodle 2.0 jumping about in IE bug fixed!

ni Mauno Korpelainen -

Old stats, Frank?

Worldwide stats for IE6 have gone down to 9% since last summer and eventually IE6 will vanish also in Asian and African markets...

It's not actually only a design or accessibility problem - it is also a problem of outdated security - try to google for example "You wouldn't drink nine year-old milk, so why use a nine year-old browser?" campign by Microsoft from May 2010...

Attachment stats.gif
In reply to Frank Ralf

Re: Moodle 2.0 jumping about in IE bug fixed!

ni Petr Skoda -
Larawan ng Core developers Larawan ng Documentation writers Larawan ng Peer reviewers Larawan ng Plugin developers
Are you volunteering to do the tons of work that are necessary to make all themes work with IE6?
In reply to Petr Skoda

Re: Moodle 2.0 jumping about - IE6 css tags

ni Mauno Korpelainen -

Maybe we could try to get standard theme at least partly functional for the last remaining ie6 users.

I used one day in testing different themes with IE8 Quirks mode and tools like http://www.onderhond.com/tools/ie6fixer/ (based on 5 main css bugs of IE6)  http://www.onderhond.com/blog/work/ie6-core-bug-fixing  together with all css tags of standard theme - but it was not giving good enough results.

Finally I took just the same Quirks mode and checked main screens with IE8 developer tools and it looks like adding the following IE6 hack tags (that do not have influence to other browsers) to Standard theme file css3.css make IE6 relatively functional with Standard theme. But NOTE: I did not yet test these tags with original IE6 (my wife has one left in an old Windows 2000 PC...I can test it tomorrow) and with different resolutions. Still if these tags work only in IE6 and they don't cause trouble to other browsers - and knowing that some people may have also Mac version of IE6... - here those magical star hack tags are, asterisk * is part of those tags :

* html .block {width:100%;}
* html .header{height:auto;}
* html .loginform {display:inline-block;}
* html .calendar-controls {display:inline-block;}
* html .collapsed {display:block;}
* html .depth_3 {display:block;}
* html .jsenabled .block_navigation .block_tree .collapsed .tree_item.branch {padding-left:10px;}
* html #region-main{overflow:hidden;zoom:1;}

(Note also that Theme designer mode must be enabled from theme settings or cache purged/cleaned/invalidated before changes take action...)

In reply to Mauno Korpelainen

Re: Moodle 2.0 jumping about - IE6 css tags tested

ni Mauno Korpelainen -
Well now I have tested those ie6 tags with a REAL IE6 and it kind of works - but still has some (previously known) tiny issues...

Navigationitem is a transparent png image and ie6 shows black border around it. Unsufficient block width causes also vertical scrollbar effect in blocks. and minicalendar title fix seems to work differently in IE8 Quirks mode and original IE6.
Furthermore IE6 has lots of performance issues (IE6 is terribly slow!!!), some new (javascript based) elements like Navigation dock or some editor plugins that may not be fully IE6 compatible...

Frankly all members of such schools and IT support that allow/force students to use IE6 should be moved to some other job...
Attachment ie6.gif
In reply to Mauno Korpelainen

Re: Moodle 2.0 jumping about - IE6 css tags

ni Mauno Korpelainen -

One of the "oddities of IE6" is that line

* html .calendar-controls {display:inline-block;}

that works in IE8 Quirks mode should actually be

* html .calendar-controls {display:inline;}

in original IE6...

Anyway - each theme can support IE6 only to certain level (with the setting to use one "IE6 compatible theme" for Old Browsers in administration menu) and it's up to theme designers if they want to keep on continuing IE6 struggle with several hundreds of known IE6 css bugs and javascript incompatibilities.

Attachment ie6.jpg
In reply to Mauno Korpelainen

Re: Moodle 2.0 jumping about - IE6 css tags

ni Guido Gautsch -

Many Australian organisations (inclduding mine, a huge government department and my wife's, a large private firm) still use IE6. I have absolutely no idea why, but it's still there malungkot

In reply to Guido Gautsch

Re: Moodle 2.0 jumping about - IE6 css tags

ni Mauno Korpelainen -

Guido,

it's never too late to forget IE6 and finally upgrade the last remaining IE6 browsers to some more modern version ngiti

If your IT Support Professionals still hesitate you could tell them for example that IE6 has over 20 unpatched vulnerabilities which can be exploited by malicious people to disclose potentially sensitive information or to compromise a user's system. kindat

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