Justing floating an idea, here. I realize an administrator can force this and make it unavailable to instructors to alter, but...
I've been looking seriously into the gradebook code and its plain to see that an enormous amount of complexity is added for what (IMO) is a layup. If only non-empty grades were aggregated then there would be no more need for excluding grades -- just leave them empty. If non-empty isn't what you want (I expect a meager minority) put zeroes in their place.
This is the first of a series of posts I'd like to respectfully submit on improving the gradebook. What this particular change allows is the beginnings of a gradebook that is actually sustainable. The current state, IMO is not. As at LSU, we need to move Moodle core code for the gradebook in the direction of SIMPLE -- simple for users and simple to maintain and modify.
SIMPLIFYING THE GRADEBOOK: What if "aggregate only non-empty grades" was ON and not a choice
by Bob Puffer -
Number of replies: 9
In reply to Bob Puffer
Re: SIMPLIFYING THE GRADEBOOK: What if "aggregate only non-empty grades" was ON and not a choice
by Tim Hunt -
What research have you done into the history of this?
What tracker issues relate to this? When was it added to CVS and what was the commit comment? In the original specification or other documentation on Moodle docs, is there any justification for this option?
What tracker issues relate to this? When was it added to CVS and what was the commit comment? In the original specification or other documentation on Moodle docs, is there any justification for this option?
In reply to Tim Hunt
Re: SIMPLIFYING THE GRADEBOOK: What if "aggregate only non-empty grades" was ON and not a choice
by Bob Puffer -
I'm sorry, Tim, one of the drawbacks of e-communication is you can't always determine if your comments have pi**ed some one off or piqued their interest.
So... just to answer your questions, I know how to track down tracker issues but don't know how to determine when this concept was added to CVS or where might lie the original gradebook specification or if it actually has a bearing since the gradebook changed so dramatically between 1.94 and 1.95.
I'm actually just offering up a "what if", making note of the fact that the gradebook code is filled with code in order to accommodate both AGGREGATEONLYGRADED and whether an item has been excluded. The problem is easy to get around for an administrator. The clauses in the code are easy to eliminate. Just believing its a good idea to move towards simple rather than complex and this (IMO) looked like a good opportunity.
So... just to answer your questions, I know how to track down tracker issues but don't know how to determine when this concept was added to CVS or where might lie the original gradebook specification or if it actually has a bearing since the gradebook changed so dramatically between 1.94 and 1.95.
I'm actually just offering up a "what if", making note of the fact that the gradebook code is filled with code in order to accommodate both AGGREGATEONLYGRADED and whether an item has been excluded. The problem is easy to get around for an administrator. The clauses in the code are easy to eliminate. Just believing its a good idea to move towards simple rather than complex and this (IMO) looked like a good opportunity.
In reply to Bob Puffer
Re: SIMPLIFYING THE GRADEBOOK: What if "aggregate only non-empty grades" was ON and not a choice
by Tim Hunt -
Apologies if I annoyed you. That was not really my aim.
However, a lot of these discussions have happened before and there is a lot of information out there.
Also, I have been through a similar process with the quiz module (which I am the maintainer of). When I was new to working on it, there were several features that I thought no one could possibly use, but when I proposed removing them, it turned out that those options were there for a good reason. People needed them to support the way that they taught.
So, I think any attempt to find features to remove unlikely to fail. If someone took the effort to implement the feature, they must have had a fairly big need for it.
I think it is more profitable to try to find way to evolve the user interface, to make the functionality that is there easier to use, so people can find the options they need, but no one loses options they rely on.
To answer the question about CVS history. You can see CVS changes relating to a particular bug by clicking on the "All" or "Version Control" tabs in a tracker bug.
Or you can browse the CVS history for a particular Moodle file by going to a URL like http://cvs.moodle.org/moodle/grade/lib.php?view=log.
However, a lot of these discussions have happened before and there is a lot of information out there.
Also, I have been through a similar process with the quiz module (which I am the maintainer of). When I was new to working on it, there were several features that I thought no one could possibly use, but when I proposed removing them, it turned out that those options were there for a good reason. People needed them to support the way that they taught.
So, I think any attempt to find features to remove unlikely to fail. If someone took the effort to implement the feature, they must have had a fairly big need for it.
I think it is more profitable to try to find way to evolve the user interface, to make the functionality that is there easier to use, so people can find the options they need, but no one loses options they rely on.
To answer the question about CVS history. You can see CVS changes relating to a particular bug by clicking on the "All" or "Version Control" tabs in a tracker bug.
Or you can browse the CVS history for a particular Moodle file by going to a URL like http://cvs.moodle.org/moodle/grade/lib.php?view=log.
In reply to Tim Hunt
Re: SIMPLIFYING THE GRADEBOOK: What if "aggregate only non-empty grades" was ON and not a choice
by Bob Puffer -
Thanks, Tim for your very usable advice.
In reply to Bob Puffer
Re: SIMPLIFYING THE GRADEBOOK: What if "aggregate only non-empty grades" was ON and not a choice
by Robert Russo -
Over the past year, we have watched the grade book become more usable and maintainable.
The option to aggregate all or non-empty grades is an important pedagogical tool for faculty.
We've even moved one step farther and created a button to insert zeroes into the empty states for instructors using aggregate only non-empty grades.
The goal was to increase flexibility while also increasing usability. Instructors should not have to enter zero for every missed quiz, but on the flip side of that same coin, they should not be required to give up running total grades just to achieve that functionality.
We would like to have the zero be entered automatically when a time limit expires or a date passes, but we are waiting until 2.0 for this feature as we believe we can use the events system to automate this.
Removing the feature from your moodle install would be a simple task, taking very little time, but asking the greater community to remove such an important feature does not make sense.
We've done a lot of work in simplifying the grade book and we have learned that you can never be simple enough.
Trim it down as best you can and assist the faculty in learning the available tools.
We've submitted a few bug reports on the 1.9.6+ grade book regarding SUM, and certain grade calculation issues that occur when two ore more students grades match, but are added in different orders while using drop lowest/keep highest, but these are bugs that are reproducible and either query problems or simple (ish) math errors. Just as we have, I encourage you to submit a bug report on tracker regarding any usability enhancement you might want, but don't overlook how simple (and specialized) some of the changes you are asking for are.
I am confident in the current grade book development team and know they will continue to improve the grade book to the point where our changes will be obsolete. 90% of them already are.
The option to aggregate all or non-empty grades is an important pedagogical tool for faculty.
We've even moved one step farther and created a button to insert zeroes into the empty states for instructors using aggregate only non-empty grades.
The goal was to increase flexibility while also increasing usability. Instructors should not have to enter zero for every missed quiz, but on the flip side of that same coin, they should not be required to give up running total grades just to achieve that functionality.
We would like to have the zero be entered automatically when a time limit expires or a date passes, but we are waiting until 2.0 for this feature as we believe we can use the events system to automate this.
Removing the feature from your moodle install would be a simple task, taking very little time, but asking the greater community to remove such an important feature does not make sense.
We've done a lot of work in simplifying the grade book and we have learned that you can never be simple enough.
Trim it down as best you can and assist the faculty in learning the available tools.
We've submitted a few bug reports on the 1.9.6+ grade book regarding SUM, and certain grade calculation issues that occur when two ore more students grades match, but are added in different orders while using drop lowest/keep highest, but these are bugs that are reproducible and either query problems or simple (ish) math errors. Just as we have, I encourage you to submit a bug report on tracker regarding any usability enhancement you might want, but don't overlook how simple (and specialized) some of the changes you are asking for are.
I am confident in the current grade book development team and know they will continue to improve the grade book to the point where our changes will be obsolete. 90% of them already are.
In reply to Robert Russo
Re: SIMPLIFYING THE GRADEBOOK: What if "aggregate only non-empty grades" was ON and not a choice
by Bob Puffer -
Hi Robert,
I love your idea of having a button to automatically populate grades with zeroes.
I also agree with you that the gradebook has come a very, very long way since 1.94. I wouldn't want to have my comments taken as distrusting the current gradebook core development team. I'm amazed as I walk the code what they've been able to accomplish.
I do seriously wonder if the code has become more maintainable though I don't have much experience with the Moodle core gradebook code prior to 1.95. When I inspect various aspects of the current gradebook code I find numerous times where operations are done "just in case", I find numerous admissions that "this is a hack and needs fixing in 2.0" (23, by the way) and I find a daunting gauntlet of checking, normalizing, unnormalizing, formatting, etc. each grade must run in order to be viewable. When I approached writing a report plugin I went in with far fewer assumptions than the gradebook core team must have because I found it much easier to get to my desired result. And... I went in with the understanding that the grade stored in the database was the raw total points awarded, not something that has been calculated and must be recalculated for retrieval. This is probably where I diverge most from the philosophy used by the core development team. I leave it the larger Moodle community to determine if that qualifies as "specialized".
I find that opinions vary on whether aggregateonlygraded should be removed and I can certainly live with that. Just opening a discussion with the ultimate intention of simplifying the gradebook. I prefer to have my discussions in the open arena -- many folks don't take part in using the bugtracker. As the time approaches I will certainly post some official change requests.
I love your idea of having a button to automatically populate grades with zeroes.
I also agree with you that the gradebook has come a very, very long way since 1.94. I wouldn't want to have my comments taken as distrusting the current gradebook core development team. I'm amazed as I walk the code what they've been able to accomplish.
I do seriously wonder if the code has become more maintainable though I don't have much experience with the Moodle core gradebook code prior to 1.95. When I inspect various aspects of the current gradebook code I find numerous times where operations are done "just in case", I find numerous admissions that "this is a hack and needs fixing in 2.0" (23, by the way) and I find a daunting gauntlet of checking, normalizing, unnormalizing, formatting, etc. each grade must run in order to be viewable. When I approached writing a report plugin I went in with far fewer assumptions than the gradebook core team must have because I found it much easier to get to my desired result. And... I went in with the understanding that the grade stored in the database was the raw total points awarded, not something that has been calculated and must be recalculated for retrieval. This is probably where I diverge most from the philosophy used by the core development team. I leave it the larger Moodle community to determine if that qualifies as "specialized".
I find that opinions vary on whether aggregateonlygraded should be removed and I can certainly live with that. Just opening a discussion with the ultimate intention of simplifying the gradebook. I prefer to have my discussions in the open arena -- many folks don't take part in using the bugtracker. As the time approaches I will certainly post some official change requests.
In reply to Bob Puffer
Re: SIMPLIFYING THE GRADEBOOK: What if "aggregate only non-empty grades" was ON and not a choice
by Mark Pearson -
"I went in with the understanding that the grade stored in the database was the raw total points awarded, not something that has been calculated and must be recalculated for retrieval. This is probably where I diverge most from the philosophy used by the core development team."
Bob, could you expand on this statement? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
"I prefer to have my discussions in the open arena -- many folks don't take part in using the bugtracker."
A hearty 'yes' to that sentiment. Personally, I think that the bugtracker should be used for tracking bugs and not discussing issues such as the one you raise here.
Mark
Bob, could you expand on this statement? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
"I prefer to have my discussions in the open arena -- many folks don't take part in using the bugtracker."
A hearty 'yes' to that sentiment. Personally, I think that the bugtracker should be used for tracking bugs and not discussing issues such as the one you raise here.
Mark
In reply to Mark Pearson
Re: SIMPLIFYING THE GRADEBOOK: What if "aggregate only non-empty grades" was ON and not a choice
by Bob Puffer -
Though its hard to claim certainty with something so complex, I believe the grade stored is a "normalized percentage" -- a reference mark along the scale of min and max. Obviously reasonable people can conclude this is the right way to do it. I leave it to this audience to decide if I'm reasonable in suggesting an alternative might be better.
In reply to Bob Puffer
Re: SIMPLIFYING THE GRADEBOOK: What if "aggregate only non-empty grades" was ON and not a choice
by Edwinna Lucyk -
I believe teachers should have the option to aggregate only non-empty grades or not. I am the MOODLE admin at my school and some teachers want to aggregate only non-empty grades and some do not.
I aggregate empy grades because I want the students to see the effect that missing assignments and tests that are not made up have on their grade.
Originally I aggregated only non-empty grades but then students saw a grade that was actually higher than it would ultimately be if work was not made up.
I then tried entering a 0 but that caused a problem for assignments that were submitted online. Since I had entered a grade, students were prevented from submitting the assignment. I needed to go and remove the 0 grade so students could submit the assignment.
Aggreggating empy grades was the best solution for me and I would not want to see that option removed.
I do think however that the terminolgy could be much clearer. I would prefer to see two mutually exclusive option buttons, i.e., only one button could be selected.
Button 1 - Include empty grades in calculations
Button 2 - Do not include empty grades in calculations
Edwinna