gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Tiffany Morgan -
Number of replies: 27
Hello all
Here is what I'm trying to do. Feel like this is probably easy and I'm just missing a step somewhere or if what I'm trying to do is not mathematically correct smile

I attached an example of the current gradebook as a reference.

I have a class with 1 sub-category so far. This subcategory is doing exactly what I want - adding up all the points the student has earned (273) and dividing by the number of points possible (257 - one item was extra credit), while excluding any assignment that does not have a grade. On the right track up to this point...

The student has earned grades in two items which have not yet been put into a sub-category (40 points earned on two assignments which were worth a total of 56 points)

When I look at the course total it shows the 313 points the student has earned thus far (which is correct) but its dividing by the total number of points in the course (2890). This causes the percent to be 11%. While this calculation is correct, I want the course total to do what the sub-category is doing - divide only by the total points for those items which the student has a grade (basically I want a aggregate only non-zero items). So it would be 313 divided by 313 points possible for the assignments thus far- to give the student 100%

I have tried each of the aggregation types and those didnt do it. What am I missing?
Thanks! You all are much smarter than me about this!
Attachment Picture_16.png
In reply to Tiffany Morgan

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Elena Ivanova -
Hi Tiffany,
I thihk if you will put both aggreagations to SWM, then check Aggregate only non-empty grades, you will achieve desired result - worked for me.
May be you can make a screenshot of Cat&Items too?
In reply to Elena Ivanova

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Tiffany Morgan -
Hi Elena
Gave that a shot and still didnt work. I tried it both with and without aggregating the subcategories, but both without success.

Here is the screenshot of categories and items too. Let me know if there is a part that is not visible that you need to see. Thanks again for your help!
Attachment Picture_18.png
In reply to Tiffany Morgan

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Elena Ivanova -
Hm..
Take a look at the very last item on the list on the first screenshot: Levels of Organization Pre-test. You see that student got 65% there. So his course total cannot be 100%. It still should not be 11%..
Do you have more graded items/columns then are included in the first screenshot?

Yep it should be nice to see full vie for C&I (max grade field and checkboxes).

Tiffany, can you please check if your Course Total is not manually overriden for this student?
In reply to Elena Ivanova

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Tiffany Morgan -
Hi Elena
I assumed that 106% is correct because that is the percent for that category. The levels of organization is not in that category so it wouldn't count towards that category total right?

For that student who is shown in the first screen shot there are other items below what is shown, but the student has not completed any of those items yet.

I do not thing that course total is manually over overridden for this student. I checked this by going into quizzes and look at the manual overrides. If I'm checking in the wrong place let me know. But the results for this one student are the same for all the students in the course

Ive attached a screen grab of the item for the subcategory - when I figure out who to submit more than one image to a post I'll post the image for the course category haha

Thanks again for your help with this mystery--much appreciated!
Attachment subcat.jpg
In reply to Tiffany Morgan

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Nancy Webb -

Hi

I've been investigating the gradebook too.

One problem I see is that you have Unit 1 maximum grade set to 257 when that is not the correct maximum number, because the student already has more than 257 points.  Hence the 106% - or are students allowed to get more than the maximum points?  Is that extra credit?

It sure looks like aggregation for the course total IS counting empty grades.  We would need to see the full view to determine that.

In my gradebook, each category has a total points of 100, because aggregation is set to a percentage when you use a simple weighted or mean of grades, it is not the sum of the items.  But I am going to check that again - although my grades seem to be aggregating correctly, there may be something wrong hidden in there.  Perhaps one has to be accurate and count up the points to make sure the max score is correct.

Is there a reason you have some grades not categorized? 

Do you have everything figured out by points, so that creates the correct weighting for your final grade?

In reply to Nancy Webb

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Tiffany Morgan -
Hi Nancy
We do have one item that is extra credit worth 20 points which is allowing the student to have 106%, so that part is correct.

I agree with your assessment that it is aggregating empty grades. Some of the items are not aggregated simply because the teachers time has not allowed her to get to that yet. My next step was to put everything in sub-category for her to see if that fixed it.

I'm not clear what you mean by "everything figured out by points" ...we are not weighting anything if that is what you mean. Just doing a simple add up students earned points and divide by total possible...

Thanks!
Tiff

In reply to Tiffany Morgan

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Tiffany Morgan -
Ok...more info for anyone that might be able to help me solve my mystery

1. I put all items into a category.
2. Total points possible added correctly in each sub-category and the parent category
3. I set all sub-categories and the parent category to single weight mean grade
4. I set all sub-categories to aggregate only non-empty
5. I set the parent category to aggregate the sub-categories and aggregate only non-empty.
6. I set extra credit on those categories that have graded items that are for extra credit

Still the grades do not seem to calculate correctly. Unit 1 seems ok. The student earned 276 of a possible 257, which is 107%. But in Unit 2 its showing 226 points earned, when really 72 have been earned so far. And the total showing is the total for the whole category rather than for just those items for which the student has a point assigned. It should be (or at least I want it to be) 72 points of a total 73 for a 99%

You can view the images at:



If what I want isn't possible, I would love to know that too smile

Thanks again!
In reply to Tiffany Morgan

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Tiffany Morgan -
Sadly I think I found the problem
http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-19151?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Achangehistory-tabpanel

Looks like I wait for 1.9.6

Thanks for everyones help--much appreciated
In reply to Tiffany Morgan

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Rod Spears -
Tiffany,

I don't think that tracker issue applies to your problem. It only applies to people who are using "sum of grades" for the aggregation method. You are using "Simple weighted mean of grades."

You are using "Simple weighted mean of grades" with the expectation that Moodle will display the points earned/points possible in the same format that is displayed when using "Sum of grades." It doesn't work that way.

When using "Simple weighted mean" Moodle always converts the points earned/points possible to the scale that you select for that sub-category. For example you have selected 270 total points for Unit 2. That means that Moodle will convert the current grade for that category to a 270 point scale and display points earned/possible points in a way that is different from "sum of grades." This does not mean it is counting the non-empty grades in the aggregation.

This is what is happening in the example you have attached:
The student has completed 5 activities and none of them are extra credit. Here are the scores:
10/10 + 19/20 + 20/20 + 20/20 + 3/3 = 72/73 = 99%
Since you have chosen 270 as the total number of points for this sub-category Moodle has to convert this "real" grade to a 270 point scale.
72/73 = x/270
x = 266
266/270 = 99%
That is why Moodle is displaying 266 as the number of earned points. As you can see the % is the same. The display of the total points is misleading, so it would be a good idea to only show the % grade in the student report.

Also, here are some other changes you should consider IF you don't want to have a problem with the Final grade:
Remove the check mark for "aggregate including sub-categories" because this setting tells Moodle to include all the activities inside the sub-categories in the aggregation total and I think you want Moodle to aggregate the items within a sub-category first and then aggregate all the sub-categories for a final grade. Is that correct?

Remove the extra credit check mark for your sub-categories. You only need to check the extra credit box for individual grades, unless you want the entire sub-category to be counted as "extra credit."

Summary: Moodle is working correctly. It would be a good idea to display only the Percentage grade for the student or maybe Percentage (Letter) to avoid confusion.
You may also want to read this discussion: http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=131187
In reply to Rod Spears

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Tiffany Morgan -
Thanks Rod for the info--I will go in and try that.

Is what I want to do possible? I just want to add up the total number of points earned, and divide by the total points possible on the items they have attempted thus far and get a percentage. I dont want any weighting.

When I tried switching the aggregation to sum of grades it appeared to be dividing by the total number of points possible on everything, not just the total number of points possible for those items for which the student had attempted.
In reply to Tiffany Morgan

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Bob Puffer -
I have never been able to get Sum of grades to exclude ungraded activities' total points in the calculation.
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Tiffany Morgan -
I notice it grays it out as an option.

So what I am attempting to do cannot be done?
In reply to Rod Spears

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Tiffany Morgan -
Rod
I updated all of the categories so that:
1. They are all sum of grades
2. The extra credit is only for those items that are truly extra credit
3. The Grade display type is set to Real (Percentage)

Images can be found at



As Bob noted also it still seems to be aggregating all of the points for the category rather than just the points for only those attempted items. If an item has a "-" why is it being treated as a zero?

Thanks again for all your help!
Tiff

In reply to Tiffany Morgan

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Rod Spears -
Tiffany,

You will not be able to use the option to "Aggregate only non-empty grades" when using the "Sum of Grades" method. Moodle will count every empty grade as a zero.

Is there a reason you need to use "Sum of Grades" instead of "Simple weighted mean?"
Is it that important to display the Real grade instead of just the Percentage or Percentage and Letter grades?

If those things are important there is a way to work around the fact that you can't tell Moodle to ignore empty grades using the "Sum of Grades."

To accomplish this you will need to create a separate category to store your "Ungraded items" and then move them into a "Graded category" when you are ready to count them.
That is something you have to do manually, but it will be the only way you can use "Sum of Grades" and not count the empty grades. If a student has not completed an activity at that time, it will be counted as a zero. However, if they complete the activity later - while the activity is still open the new grade will update automatically. If you are discounting points for late work, you would then have to override that grade directly in the Gradebook.

Here is a link to a blog entry I created that explains this setup: Click here to view those directions.
In reply to Rod Spears

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Tiffany Morgan -
Hi Rod
I wanted to use Sum of grades because its described as "... the only type that does not convert the grades to percentages internally".

Here are the teachers needs:
1. Know how many points a student earned on each assessed item.
2. A point is a point-nothing is weighed any more than anything else.
3. Know what percent the student has earned to date on those items which they have attempted. If they haven't attempted it and the item is still open, it should not be a zero--its a Null
4. Be able to aggregate points and percents in smaller subgroups (some teachers want this by unit, others want to do this by semester)

I have one teacher that was doing what you suggest-moving items from an ungraded. My question with that (and I will read your blog--thanks for sending that!) is if you have 10 kids, and 5 completed the item, and 5 haven't, and the item is still open, wouldn't 5 of them show a lower grade than they truly earned until they complete the item?

Thanks again for you help--much appreciated!

In reply to Tiffany Morgan

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Bob Puffer -
Hi Tiff,
Try this (hope it works for you):
  1. Set your category totals and course total to display real
  2. Toggle each category (including the overall) from Sum of grades to SWM.
Unless I'm experiencing a brain hemorrhage, I believe it will cause the correct total points to display in SWM and allow you to exclude grades not yet marked.
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Rod Spears -
Bob,

I could be wrong, but I don't think that is going to work when using SWM in that category. As a matter of fact, it will be more confusing for the student because the real grade is not going to be the actual total of all the grades they earned in most cases.

However, you would be able to exclude grades not marked yet.
In reply to Rod Spears

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Bob Puffer -
Assuming the User Report is set to display percentage I believe this may accomplish the goal.
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Tiffany Morgan -
Unfortunately it did not seem to achieve the results I had hoped for. Set as Bob recommended. The results are shown here




In reply to Tiffany Morgan

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Rod Spears -
Tiffany,

If they have not completed the item, then they have not earned anything yet so it will show what they have actually earned.

There is a trade off.

If you use Sum of Grades, you will have to use the non-graded category and manually move the items if you don't want all empty grades to count as a zero because Sum of Grades does not allow you to ignore those grades.

If you use Sum of Grades, you will not have the flexibility to exclude (exempt) certain grades for certain students because that feature does not work with Sum of Grades.

If you use SWMean of Grades you will be able to do both of the above, but you give up the feature of being able to display the ACTUAL total number of points earned IN A SUB-CATEGORY. This does not apply to the display of that real grade for a grade item. You will still be able to do that.

A point is still a point when you use SWMean, the weighting goes on behind the scenes. You are actually weighting a grade when you use Sum of Grades also. When you create an assignment that is worth 100 points, it weighs 10 times more than an assignment that is worth 10 points.

I don't really understand what you mean by #4. Based on my current understanding of that item, I think you could accomplish that better by using SWMean and sub-categories. This would be confusing if you use Sum of Grades because you will either have to always have some grade items stored in the "Not Graded" category or you will have to create twice as many sub-categories - one for each sub-group with a non-graded sub-category for that sub-group also. It could become very confusing.
In reply to Rod Spears

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Tiffany Morgan -
I say this with the complete acknowledgment that my math skills are lacking, but I guess my problem/confusion/frustration exists with the the idea that Sum of Grades does not let you ignore empty grades. If they have not completed an item that is still open (aka not late) and they truly turned in something that didnt earn them zero points - they didnt earn a zero--its null.

What I meant with #4 is that teachers want the flexibility of being able to group thier assessable items based on their needs. Some want to group it by semester, some by unit/chapter.

I do have a teacher that is doing what you describe-moving items from an "ungraded" to "graded" category, but it seems there should be an easier, less hands on way to do it.
In reply to Tiffany Morgan

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Rod Spears -
Yes, there is an easier way.

Use Simple Weighted Mean of Grades and don't worry about displaying the Real grade, just display the percentage grade and maybe the letter grade. The percentage grade will work out the same in the end.
In reply to Rod Spears

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Tiffany Morgan -
Hi again Rod--thanks again for your time and dialog with this...

I spent a lot of time testing this and I understand exactly what you are saying about the percent coming out correct. I set it to swm, aggregate only non empty grades and display the grade as percent the percent comes out exactly as it should. The points do not appear--only the percent--which is correct.

If I set it to sum of grades, the display to real the points come out correct in the grade column. But the percent is now off.

So it would seem, if done with out the option of a graded and ungraded category, you have to choices:
1. show the correct percent
OR
2. show the correct points


In reply to Tiffany Morgan

Re: gradebook categories and calcuations for course total

by Rod Spears -
Yes, I think that is correct.