I noticed this on Steve Hyndman's blog (I track it through RSS as it's always good to keep an eye on where you are being misrepresented by selective quoting). I thought it might be a good idea for us to discuss here the relationship between forum activity and requirements for becoming a Moodle partner.
I had noticed for some time that certain partners were not active in the forums. Perhaps this is just a case of documentation lagging behind practice but I think it would be good to clarify any change in requirements, or just to clear this up if it is a misunderstanding.
I have great faith in our ability to do this, since I think the rather tortuous discussion that led to the Advertising Policy has had a good outcome in terms of practice (Moodle Partners and others) on this forum (I can't speak for all others).
Well, with Mr. H around, as a partner if you stick your head out of the trenches then you're more than likely to get it shot off 
I can only speak for myself but one way or another, Moodle pays my mortgage and I guess there are several reasons for being active in the forums that occur to me:
* What comes around goes around - how can I expect help if I don't dish it out myself when I am able?
* I gain knowledge and experience. I learn something new every day that helps me with my Moodle and related activities. Just by participating in the forums. Without that I'd be standing still.
* Well, ok, Kudos I suppose. Being (hopefully) known as the helpful guy in the forums can't be bad for business - at least.
I've never presumed to "check up on" other users in the Partner group. While I think that *my* participation in the forums was an important factor in E-Learn Design's application, my colleagues in the partnership who are not active simply have other skills. It doesn't make them bad people if you will I'm quite sure that Martin et. al. take a balanced view when considering applications. I would be surprised if in a Moodle Partnership there was *no one* who was reasonably active in these forums.
I can only speak for myself but one way or another, Moodle pays my mortgage and I guess there are several reasons for being active in the forums that occur to me:
* What comes around goes around - how can I expect help if I don't dish it out myself when I am able?
* I gain knowledge and experience. I learn something new every day that helps me with my Moodle and related activities. Just by participating in the forums. Without that I'd be standing still.
* Well, ok, Kudos I suppose. Being (hopefully) known as the helpful guy in the forums can't be bad for business - at least.
I've never presumed to "check up on" other users in the Partner group. While I think that *my* participation in the forums was an important factor in E-Learn Design's application, my colleagues in the partnership who are not active simply have other skills. It doesn't make them bad people if you will
Well I personally if I were choosing a Moodle Partner to help me I would go for one who contributed to the forums regularly. This is where it's all happening and if you can't be bothered to join in it makes one wonder about your commitment. I'm an MFL teacher by trade and I rate those teachers more who keep up to date with changes in the language by regularly going abroad,maintaining contact with native speakers, reading/surfing on the subject...rather than those who, once qualified, think they don't have to do anything else. Surely the analogy can apply to Moodle Partners too?
I think we need to define "partner" a bit. I think I have been indiscriminately equating the idea of the Partner-Owner and the company itself. Upon serious reflection, It does not seem reasonable for, say, the President or CEO of a company with 20-30 employees to be active in user forums. It does, however, seem reasonable to me to expect that one or more people on the staff would have this responsibility.
Are the "partner" companies all so small that the owner(s) is/are in a position to be part of the moodle.org community? Maybe that needs to be clarified.
It seems to me that people working for a partner would, by definition, have specialized knowledge that could be very useful to people seeking help in the forums.
So when we see a Partner icon, it could refer to the owner/CEO of the company, but the meaning might be expanded to refer to the designated employee who interacts on moodle.org.
I do think that all partners would benefit from a presence here on moodle.org. And the community would benefit from guidance and advice from partners. That might happen in a number of different ways, and I think a tightly defined approach might not be the best approach.
I won't segue into a long discussion of the value of communities and social networks to business, but it is quite an interesting topic.
atw
Are the "partner" companies all so small that the owner(s) is/are in a position to be part of the moodle.org community? Maybe that needs to be clarified.
It seems to me that people working for a partner would, by definition, have specialized knowledge that could be very useful to people seeking help in the forums.
So when we see a Partner icon, it could refer to the owner/CEO of the company, but the meaning might be expanded to refer to the designated employee who interacts on moodle.org.
I do think that all partners would benefit from a presence here on moodle.org. And the community would benefit from guidance and advice from partners. That might happen in a number of different ways, and I think a tightly defined approach might not be the best approach.
I won't segue into a long discussion of the value of communities and social networks to business, but it is quite an interesting topic.
atw
It does, however, seem reasonable to me to expect that one or more people on the staff would have this responsibility.
...and I would be that guy I guess
I think the idea was that the Partner logo applied to anyone affiliated (even loosely) to a Partner *Company*. There's no implication that they are the boss or otherwise.
FWIW. I'm definitely not the boss in the Partner Company for which I consult. I just clean the toilets
...and I would be that guy I guess
I think the idea was that the Partner logo applied to anyone affiliated (even loosely) to a Partner *Company*. There's no implication that they are the boss or otherwise.
FWIW. I'm definitely not the boss in the Partner Company for which I consult. I just clean the toilets
you seem very knowledgeable about Moodle for someone who's just a toilet cleaner Howard
Success!! I have fooled you
Frances,
I remember we touched upon this briefly when we met in 2006. Personally, I don't have any great hang up about the extent to which I contribute to the various forums, I simply contribute what I can, when I can. One thing to consider is that the times when I contribute less frequently are most likely to be those when I'm busy working with clients directly or managing projects. Hopefully the busier we are the more royalties we are contributing to sustain Moodle development.
Tracker contributions are an important aspect of Moodle "discussion" too and should be taken in to account if contributions were to become a key determinant of eligibility to be a Moodle Partner.
I think it would be difficult to determine Partner eligibility criteria by community defined measurements. Typically most business owners will decide for themselves who they want to (and can) do business with and who they find acceptable as a business partner. Even where there are objective selection criteria there has to be place for subjective assessment too. "Gut feel" is an important, if imperfect, measure.
Business owners may not always get it right and they must live with the consequences, however, the decision must remain with them. I would suggest that lack of forum activity doesn't necessarily directly equate to lack of competence.
I remember we touched upon this briefly when we met in 2006. Personally, I don't have any great hang up about the extent to which I contribute to the various forums, I simply contribute what I can, when I can. One thing to consider is that the times when I contribute less frequently are most likely to be those when I'm busy working with clients directly or managing projects. Hopefully the busier we are the more royalties we are contributing to sustain Moodle development.
Tracker contributions are an important aspect of Moodle "discussion" too and should be taken in to account if contributions were to become a key determinant of eligibility to be a Moodle Partner.
I think it would be difficult to determine Partner eligibility criteria by community defined measurements. Typically most business owners will decide for themselves who they want to (and can) do business with and who they find acceptable as a business partner. Even where there are objective selection criteria there has to be place for subjective assessment too. "Gut feel" is an important, if imperfect, measure.
Business owners may not always get it right and they must live with the consequences, however, the decision must remain with them. I would suggest that lack of forum activity doesn't necessarily directly equate to lack of competence.
Fair points Ray about tracker and financial contributions(also AT's points about who is in company). It may just be that this needs to be clarified on the web site that currently says "For consultant services, you should be an active, useful participant in the Moodle.org forums." I don't think that this a community-defined measurement.
I didn't really understand what you said about business owners (clients?) and partners.
What I do know is that I am perfectly happy with the Moodle partner I use (pteppic.net) for hosting. The Moodle partner moniker was a factor in initial choice but my satisfaction rests on current service.
I didn't really understand what you said about business owners (clients?) and partners.
What I do know is that I am perfectly happy with the Moodle partner I use (pteppic.net) for hosting. The Moodle partner moniker was a factor in initial choice but my satisfaction rests on current service.
I didn't really understand what you said about business owners (clients?) and partners.
Hi,
Sorry for the lack of clarity there. I was attempting to be as generic and uncontroversial as possible.
Perhaps I should have just said that it has to remain Martin's call who he chooses as his business partners.
Hi,
Sorry for the lack of clarity there. I was attempting to be as generic and uncontroversial as possible.
Perhaps I should have just said that it has to remain Martin's call who he chooses as his business partners.
As someone who has worked with Howard for four years I can assure you Mary, that Howard have never *once* cleaned a toilet in the entire time that I've known him!
I've been following this discussion with a great deal of interest and I think it's an important one to have. As Howard's said, there are some of us involved in a partner company (me included) and we don't necessarily have the skills to answer questions in the more technical forums (of which there are many), but we offer other pedagogical skills to Moodle overall. I subscribe to Using Moodle and I follow many of the discussions closely (often bending Howard's ear to explain things to me when I see issues raised) and I do jump in when I have a perspective to offer. I also often find bugs and test new aspects of Moodle (from a teaching perspective) and feed that back directly to Howard to report bugs and/or talk through issues which he then often feeds back to the Moodle Community. I say that only to point out that mine (and surely many others' as well) is not as visible of a role in the forums as someone like Howard, but that it is still an active one each day. But I think it is also significant that the partner programme is not *just* about contributing to the forums. It's also (to name a few things): about being able to offer a rounded knowledgeable and specialist approach to using Moodle as an educational tool; contributing to the Moodle Documentation Project; providing quality educational advice to the community in lots of different ways (I do volunteer workshops for Charities who want to use Moodle in the evenings when I can and offer pedagogical advice regularly to the Scottish Moodle User Group locally both through their mail list and their JISC funded and organised face to face meetings. I also run drop in sessions on Moodle in the local pubs with wireless access each month which contributes to an awareness in the overall local community of Moodle users); understanding the significance and strength of open source projects overall. For me, I get a *lot* out of Moodle: I too learn something new everyday, I engage in interesting discussions with our local community daily and I get to use my creative skills as an instructional designer in new and interesting ways all the time. I've always been very clear that it is essential that I also put as much back into Moodle as I possibly can.
I've been following this discussion with a great deal of interest and I think it's an important one to have. As Howard's said, there are some of us involved in a partner company (me included) and we don't necessarily have the skills to answer questions in the more technical forums (of which there are many), but we offer other pedagogical skills to Moodle overall. I subscribe to Using Moodle and I follow many of the discussions closely (often bending Howard's ear to explain things to me when I see issues raised) and I do jump in when I have a perspective to offer. I also often find bugs and test new aspects of Moodle (from a teaching perspective) and feed that back directly to Howard to report bugs and/or talk through issues which he then often feeds back to the Moodle Community. I say that only to point out that mine (and surely many others' as well) is not as visible of a role in the forums as someone like Howard, but that it is still an active one each day. But I think it is also significant that the partner programme is not *just* about contributing to the forums. It's also (to name a few things): about being able to offer a rounded knowledgeable and specialist approach to using Moodle as an educational tool; contributing to the Moodle Documentation Project; providing quality educational advice to the community in lots of different ways (I do volunteer workshops for Charities who want to use Moodle in the evenings when I can and offer pedagogical advice regularly to the Scottish Moodle User Group locally both through their mail list and their JISC funded and organised face to face meetings. I also run drop in sessions on Moodle in the local pubs with wireless access each month which contributes to an awareness in the overall local community of Moodle users); understanding the significance and strength of open source projects overall. For me, I get a *lot* out of Moodle: I too learn something new everyday, I engage in interesting discussions with our local community daily and I get to use my creative skills as an instructional designer in new and interesting ways all the time. I've always been very clear that it is essential that I also put as much back into Moodle as I possibly can.
Ah? But Deneka - do you clean the toilets? ;)
Absolutely! (Someone has too)
Thanks for that post Deneka. People helping other in forums are visible, but when Moodle.org members help community groups, this is fun but definitely less visible. Like assessment, measurement of forum presence may focus on what we can measure rather than what we are trying to achieve.
I stand corrected. After a quick glance through the partners group and the PHM group, it appears that some re-organization has been going on. I guess I am just oblivious!
atw
atw
Since AT broached the matter here, I thought i's raise it again here as I didn't see a comprenhensive response to the question of use of MP icon.
Specifically, does anyone working for an MP, including the janitor (who in some places may have more on the ball than others) get the MP icon on moodle.org? Is it up to the MP or to Helen? If all get the icon by right is that really appropriate, if up to MPs or Helen, should that be made clearer. While Howard may be the archetype for someone with an MP icon, implications of the cave immediately shadow our perception of others (two indirect references and an obscure analogy in one sentence - yousa!)
Perhaps we need another icon for a moodle partner employee. Maybe Partner Employee Without Credential? [I am on an iPhone so don't have GUI access to emoticons, so am not sur of text needed to do little devil-lol]
Specifically, does anyone working for an MP, including the janitor (who in some places may have more on the ball than others) get the MP icon on moodle.org? Is it up to the MP or to Helen? If all get the icon by right is that really appropriate, if up to MPs or Helen, should that be made clearer. While Howard may be the archetype for someone with an MP icon, implications of the cave immediately shadow our perception of others (two indirect references and an obscure analogy in one sentence - yousa!)
Perhaps we need another icon for a moodle partner employee. Maybe Partner Employee Without Credential? [I am on an iPhone so don't have GUI access to emoticons, so am not sur of text needed to do little devil-lol]
You mean this one Marc? 
LOL, does this work - in safari I only see evil so I had to do a web search to actually find the characters! I have some special emoticons on my Moodle that I find easy to remember (like !mp and ;=} - ©) but ;) does not work in Moodle land, I guess one has to do
and now I will never forget this } - ] - thanks
As far as PEWC's maybe we could have icons that have tassels on different sides of the mortarboards... isn't that what typicaly signifies the receipt of a credential (and I think that emoticon should work ;)
GoG
Hi Frances,
Ray and A.T. have provided some good answers already, but let me just reiterate.
We look at a lot of factors when assessing applications from unknown companies wanting to become partners. The record of contributions in the forums, tracker and docs is one way to assess their knowledge and interest in Moodle, so during the application process we usually ask for the names of people in the company who have been involved on moodle.org (if we don't already know them) and we research those contributions.
We have never had a requirement for ongoing posting in the forums by the CEO of these companies or any of the employees, that would be a little ridiculous. Many of them do and that is fantastic, obviously I would prefer that where possible, but the main thing (for them to be running a good service) is obviously that they are at least keeping up to date with new developments by reading discussions, release notes, news etc as necessary.
We also have our own internal Partner forums with more news (one of the advantages of being a partner), as well as all kinds of conferences and meetings where we discuss new developments. Often they will have one or more staff members tasked to keeping up with this sort of thing. Many of them also have developers who are very active in the tracker and docs but don't post a lot on the forums.
Ray and A.T. have provided some good answers already, but let me just reiterate.
We look at a lot of factors when assessing applications from unknown companies wanting to become partners. The record of contributions in the forums, tracker and docs is one way to assess their knowledge and interest in Moodle, so during the application process we usually ask for the names of people in the company who have been involved on moodle.org (if we don't already know them) and we research those contributions.
We have never had a requirement for ongoing posting in the forums by the CEO of these companies or any of the employees, that would be a little ridiculous. Many of them do and that is fantastic, obviously I would prefer that where possible, but the main thing (for them to be running a good service) is obviously that they are at least keeping up to date with new developments by reading discussions, release notes, news etc as necessary.
We also have our own internal Partner forums with more news (one of the advantages of being a partner), as well as all kinds of conferences and meetings where we discuss new developments. Often they will have one or more staff members tasked to keeping up with this sort of thing. Many of them also have developers who are very active in the tracker and docs but don't post a lot on the forums.
Thanks for the clarification Martin. My reading of the requirements for becoming a Moodle Partner interpreted the requirement of forum contributions as being ongoing for consultants. I hadn't seen this as ridiculous. Obviously I don't know the details but I had somehow imagined that partners contributed financially and in kind to development of Moodle, composed of software, testing, requirements, support, etc.
In any case, I appreciate the effective presence of Moodle partners on the forums (they certainly add to the mix of experiences), and especially their good grace in answering my question. I am glad to be somewhere where such questions can be asked.
In any case, I appreciate the effective presence of Moodle partners on the forums (they certainly add to the mix of experiences), and especially their good grace in answering my question. I am glad to be somewhere where such questions can be asked.
Frances,
I don't think things have changed on the issue you bring up, but Martin could certainly clarify any misunderstanding you have about Moodle partner program requirements if you asked him directly. BTW, is this an issue Steve H. has going on his blog these days? I think he's made it his sole purpose in life to knock on MP's and Moodle in general.
I think you are right that some partners don't publish here at moodle.org as often as they once did. I know I don't. However, people that work for an MP company do routinely answer questions and that is keeping with the intention of partner participation. I do see a number of partners regularly making posts like Howard, Ray, Michael Penney, Jeff Watkins, Mike Churchward, Ralf H., Hans, Jonathan Moore, Mark D., Eloy, Alex B., Peter S., Stuart M., Penny L., Martin L., and Martin D.
And Moodle partners answer tons of questions everyday in their own help desk systems.
I don't think things have changed on the issue you bring up, but Martin could certainly clarify any misunderstanding you have about Moodle partner program requirements if you asked him directly. BTW, is this an issue Steve H. has going on his blog these days? I think he's made it his sole purpose in life to knock on MP's and Moodle in general.
I think you are right that some partners don't publish here at moodle.org as often as they once did. I know I don't. However, people that work for an MP company do routinely answer questions and that is keeping with the intention of partner participation. I do see a number of partners regularly making posts like Howard, Ray, Michael Penney, Jeff Watkins, Mike Churchward, Ralf H., Hans, Jonathan Moore, Mark D., Eloy, Alex B., Peter S., Stuart M., Penny L., Martin L., and Martin D.
And Moodle partners answer tons of questions everyday in their own help desk systems.
Thanks Bryan,
and there is also a world that is not speaking english as a first language. Some partners are maintainer of moodle courses in their main language (i.e. Peter Sereinigg, André Krüger and me (for German)) and there are also additional forums outside moodle.org like moodle.de with 10.000 German speaking users or special discussion boards for austrian teachers that are supported by partners.
If there is a company with lots of people some of them are registrated users but their main work isn't support or community support. They are designer, technicians, programmers or teachers. So they are here on the site registrered but not active as maintainer or supporter.
Ralf
and there is also a world that is not speaking english as a first language. Some partners are maintainer of moodle courses in their main language (i.e. Peter Sereinigg, André Krüger and me (for German)) and there are also additional forums outside moodle.org like moodle.de with 10.000 German speaking users or special discussion boards for austrian teachers that are supported by partners.
If there is a company with lots of people some of them are registrated users but their main work isn't support or community support. They are designer, technicians, programmers or teachers. So they are here on the site registrered but not active as maintainer or supporter.
Ralf
theres only one partner in hong kong, no response for email, not able to contact via phone