Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Michael Wilder -
Number of replies: 27

Dear colleagues,

I've been asked to present on some of the factors that influence educational institutions to choose commercial versus open-source products.

Your feedback would be *greatly* appreciated!

If you have a moment, please respond (on or off list) to the following questions:

1. What are the primary factors that influence your institution to invest in commercial products (such as learning management systems, desktop applications, plug-ins, etc.) versus open-source analogues (or vice versa if your institution has adopted open source products)?

2. What aspects of your current product (commercial or open source) have made you consider switching to the alternative?

3. What aspects of an alternative product (commercial or open source) would have to change in order to meet the needs of your institution?

Lastly, if there is anyone on your staff (including you) that would be willing to discuss these topics off-list, I'd truly appreciate it.

Thanks in advance!

Sincerely,

Michael Wilder,

Learning Technologies Specialist

Teaching & Learning Center

University of Nevada, Las Vegas

Box 453054

4505 South Maryland Parkway

Las Vegas, NV 89154-1099

Phone (702) 895-2258

Fax (702) 895-2291 • LLB 3241 • Mail Stop 3054

michael.wilder@unlv.edu

(UNLV) (TLC)
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In reply to Michael Wilder

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Don Hinkelman -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers
1. Limiting my comments to LMS only, these are the main factors:
a. flexibility: ability to customize, create learning activities designed by teachers
a. security: standard web software--LAMP. Our staff know how to secure Apache and Linux very well. Moodle's reputation is spotless.
c. cost: zero cost means we can invest in staff, new code and servers.

2. We chose Moodle because teachers were excited about it. They were already running training workshops amongst themselves and sharing courses and activities. It was easy to move in that direction. We never considered Blackboard, Fujitsu and others because their product was not customizable except at a high cost, required very expensive contracts, and no teachers were asking for it.

3. We would consider a commercial product under these conditions:
a. full access to the code and ability to modify it
b. standard LAMP base configuration
c. less than US$10 annual cost/student for total cost of operation.
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In reply to Don Hinkelman

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Tony Hursh -
To the excellent list already provided by Don, I'd add long-term data retention.

That's a risk of commercial software which is often overlooked.

What happens if the company disappears, or if you simply decide to stop paying for it?

In all too many cases, it means that your student records and course materials disappear.

That's simply not acceptable to us.



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In reply to Michael Wilder

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Anthony Borrow -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers

Michael - I'll give it a go and add my two cents.

1. What are the primary factors that influence your institution to invest in commercial products (such as learning management systems, desktop applications, plug-ins, etc.) versus open-source analogues (or vice versa if your institution has adopted open source products)?

Folks normally invest in commercial products because they have been generally accepted among a particular user group to fulfill the needs of that particular sector for that particular goal. For example, I bought Quicken because it was pretty good at helping me to keep my checkbook balanced and thus avoid banking fees. Of course now I use GnuCash because I don't like to pay for software (on principal).

Another reason why folks use commercial products is that by paying for it they feel entitled to some type of support. Commercial vendors usually have some type of support although more times than not you end up paying for it just as much as you would for custom support with open source. Commercial software tends to market itself and promote itself as being competitive. Open source software tends to be more honest about what it can and cannot do (based on my experience).

2. What aspects of your current product (commercial or open source) have made you consider switching to the alternative?

I have never considered using anything but Moodle for an LMS. I compared it to a couple of commercial products but as Don points out I enjoy having the control to change things the way I want them to be. After enjoying the freedom and power (and responsibility that comes with it) I find it hard to use commercial products because I feel limited. However, others argue that those limitations are in fact to keep the user safe from himself. There is one standard way of doing things and the company can support that (or at least claim that it can).

3. What aspects of an alternative product (commercial or open source) would have to change in order to meet the needs of your institution?

To consider using something other than Moodle it would need to provide better functionality, be more user friendly and cheaper. In all honesty I tend to be very pragmatic, Moodle is a tool (albeit a very effective one IMO) but if there were a better tool to accomplish the goal of helping teachers educate students then I would consider it but I love Moodle so it would have to be pretty impressive.

I hope these comments are helpful. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions or need additional information by sending me a Moodle message. Peace - Anthony
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In reply to Anthony Borrow

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Hans de Zwart -

"After enjoying the freedom and power (and responsibility that comes with it) I find it hard to use commercial products because I feel limited."

This is my prime personal reason for running a linux distribution on my computers. This feeling of freedom is very real, but sometimes hard to explain to people who have a different "relationship" to their computing...

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In reply to Michael Wilder

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Michael Wilder -

Thanks, everyone, for your replies.

I'm presenting at Oscelot's Open Source Day III on "Commercial vs. Open Source:  Weighing the Issues."

Specifically, I'm trying to answer the following questions:

1.  What are some of the issues that hold educational institutions back from considering non-commercial alternatives? 

2.  What are some of the challenges both commercial and open source learning management system developers face in order to satisfy the needs of educational institutions?

I have to admit that I'm biased:  I'm a strong believer in the open source movement.  In order to mantain some sense of fairness, however, I asked everyone (five different e-mail lists/discussion forums) the same set of questions...those you responded to previously.

Part of my presentation, however, is to provide open source developers with advice regarding how to make their product more viable, acceptable, and attractive in a commercially dominated industry.  Anyone have any advice along those lines?

Thanks again!

Michael Wilder
Learning Technologies Specialist
UNLV Teaching and Learning Center

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In reply to Michael Wilder

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Marc Grober -
I sat on a Budget Review Team for one of the larger school districts in the U.S. A major concern of the Team was the fact that a project team for an SMS solution simply ignored any open software solution. The Team became more concerned the more the district insisted on use of proprietary OS and COTS based upon the argument that open software and OS were not reliable etc.

The Team's investigation and reports were maintained on-line publicly and are still available at http://asdtech.wik.is and the site includes broadranging discussion in the areas in which you are presenting.

The same district finally agreed to hire a consultant whose report, though I would hardly call it thorough, did acknowledge that use of open software where there was a broad dynamic community supporting it might be appropriate (big of her, no?).

However the district eschewed an open software solution, though the CIO did agree to consider open software solutions from there on.... But, in fact there was no change in the way the district did business until recently when the district decided to experiment with Moodle. However, the District refused to discuss this with anyone who had been recommending such solutions.

Short of that, it would likely be advisable to pitch guaranteed uptimes with penalty clauses and 24/7 tech support.

Bottom line here I think is that inexpensive often translates in eduspeak to defective, unsupported, troublesome and problematic. Lack of in-house expertise with open software can be a major problem, especially as educational institutions become Microsoft zombies and invest millions in Pearson, etc. The best advice I can think of is to avoid any mention of "open" unless someone asks specific questions about specific technology. Price you services so that the total package is about 70% of a COTS player (close enough to appear viable, far enough away to represent savings and explain the diff by way of being able to avoid the need to demonstrate a high yield on investment.... In other words, pretend to be a thief.....

Horrific advice? Yes.... but then at least in the U.S. we have demonstrated again and again that educational institutions are really not about education, its about making everyone feel warm and cozy..... and my guess is there are more IT education CIOs who feel that warm and cozy means big shrink wrapped software with big prices from companies owned by friends of the President than anything else.....
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In reply to Michael Wilder

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Bob Kaehms -
Hi Michael,

This is a subject near and dear to my heart, as I am just finishing a masters
in education technology leadership, and am working on a masters project
with the working title:

"What Open Source has to Offer Teachers, and it's not Cheaper Software"

While the cost issues are very important, I think a secondary issue that is
often overlooked is the idea of connecting the process of open source
development to the development of curriculum and teaching models.

Specifically, consider that in many disciplines, the collaborative process that
the open source communities have mastered over the last 10 years or so, are
being adopted and modeled in industry, and provides an interesting framework
for K12 and higher ed. (For instance, right now, I'm looking around the
moodle.org site for shared courses - I know I've found such an area before,
but can't seem to relocate HELP??...

I'd be happy to share my literature review with you, but don't want to publish
until the end of the fall when I get a few more things figured out.

The bottom line is that Open Source still costs, but not in traditional direct
out of pocket expenses.




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In reply to Bob Kaehms

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Marc Grober -
Well, having tried to encourage the use of open software, I do have to play Satan here and note:

  • I don't know that I have ever seen a situation in which a public school teacher had time during their contract day to develop curriculum, let alone develop the application or programming skills to effectively use Moodle.
  • While a good deal of NCLB angst is nonsensical from a legal perspective, the fact of the matter is that it is leading in the US to adoption of shrinkwrapped encompassing software (e.g. HM Reading) that is so time consuming and comprehensive that it might appear to some that the intent was to create hurdles vis-a-vis teacher developed curriculum.
  • In fact, hiring practices in the US seem to be moving from seeking teachers trained in teaching to teachers trained to use specific curricula.
  • Some districts are invoking provisions to require that teachers document the provision of adopted curriculum.
In sum, under Bush and Pals, arguably Moodle offers little to public school teachers other than trouble.

Moreover, my experience has been that even programs designed to promote educational collaboration such as the "Middle School Model" often fail to result in collaborative and thematic instruction because teams spend most of their time putting out fires started by students, parents, and administrators.... and even where master teachers would rather be working collaboratively on instructional design, deployment and delivery, they exhausted having to deal with the new cadre of teachers who can't tie their shoes (see note below**) and with escalating behavioral problems.

Bottom line? Bah Humbug! District's want expensive shrink wrapped packages and would rather pay millions for a pig in a poke than adequate salaries for master teachers as payroll is a recurring cost but software can be hidden in the budget. Open software opens a Pandora's box of teacher innovation that Districts will have to spend resources on to crush, not to mention the challenges to District standards it will promote (as in "I don't care that Entourage is buggy or that Exchange is down weekly, you MUST use the tools we provide and NO OTHER!") while to teachers it presents more ways to work for free, get dissed by colleagues that are running out the door when the bell rings, etc.



** Last year I took the MSMATH Praxis. The exam essentially covers pre-algebra and basic algebra and I can't imagine anyone who was on a college track high school program who would not be able to complete and pass the test. After the session I discovered that a) I was the only one there who was not employed by a local District within the last two years for teaching MS MATH, b) I was the only one who finished the exam (actually no one else completed even half the exam), I was the only one there over the age of 24.

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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Anthony Borrow -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Marc - I think I have probably been watching a little too much Law & Order as I am feeling the impulse to play attorney.

Redirect: I understand that the bulk of your comments are directed at a critique of the state of the educational system here in the U.S. but want to make sure that some of your comments do not get misinterpreted. For example, you state that for the public school teacher, Moodle has little to offer other than trouble. As I understand your comments, it is not because of any lacking in Moodle but because of problems in the educational system which you perceive as not fostering the type of collaborative creativity that Moodle's constructionist pedagogy encourages. My concern was that someone might read your comment and say that Moodle itself has nothing to offer which obviously is very far from the truth with its wealth of resources and activities.

Objection: I'll move from a redirect to an objection. Early in your post, you commented that you do not know of public school teachers who have the time to learn the programming skills necessary to use Moodle. Having been involved in faculty training and watching how Moodle was implemented at a variety of schools I do not believe that the users have to learn programming to use Moodle. I often encourage new users to focus on a particular skill that they would like to learn (posting a document, creating an assignment, writing a quiz, etc.) and to experiment with how best to use that tool in their classrooms. Then they can move on. While Moodle is rich in the functionality that it has to offer and flexible in the various ways that the tools can be used, contrary to what some folks may believe, I do not believe that to use Moodle effectively one has to be learn programming skills. As for application skills, I have commented in my faculty training courses that if you can purchase something online then you have the skills to use Moodle. I would say that the hardest part about beginning with Moodle is avoiding the temptation to try to learn everything at once. But my experience has been that folks can make effective use of Moodle without learning programming and with very minimal training.

Closing Arguments: I do agree with you that public school teachers face many challenges. Sometimes, as you note, those challenges come from behavioral issues and sometimes they come from administration trying to implement policies that may unintentionally (OK, I'm being a little optimistic) seem to stifle creativity. Almost certainly the teachers are over-worked and under-paid. Yet despite those challenges, I think that Moodle has a great deal to offer those teachers by allowing the opportunity to divide and conquer in a way that can both meet the desired district objectives and provide creativity. Using Moodle may inspire one to be creative in an environment where that creativity might be suspect; however, I think that is a risk well worth taking. I am prone to emphasize when I speak with teachers that Moodle is simply a tool. While Moodle is a powerful tool, it is one tool of many that the teacher has as they strive to best serve their students.

Peace - Anthony
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In reply to Anthony Borrow

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Marc Grober -
Well done Perry!

Yes, I mean that as an indictment of the educational system. Moodle issues are more than adequately documented here in the forums (and I obviously think there are some redeeming aspects or I wouldn't be spending time here....)blush I have been an advocate for putting curriculum online (if for no other reason as a way of taking money out of the pockets of the BIG PUBLISHERS who have been peddling trash to our schools for so long (I use the history textbooks I was handed when in high school as examples of why students should not take anything on face value and usually start off by providing an essay on the events that led a Spanish Jew to hustle her most intolerant majesty into believeing the world was some 40% smaller than it is.)

Yes, you are right that technically a teacher need not have any programming background to use Moodle...... However:
  • Someone has to manage the Moodle, and if teachers are going to manage the Moodle then I have to argue that being clueless as to all programming is a non-starter.
  • Sooner or later the teacher will come across an issue where the response on the forum is going to be "just an easy patch", "try substituting this code", etc. Nature of the beast. Many of the teachers I know can't use a Word Processor, let alone navigate the forums and the docs and make use of what they find there.
  • And things do go bump. As one sees from reviewing the forums and docs there are often bugs, issues and improvements that result in Moodle not behaving as 'advertised', where that be withg respect to students unknowingly over-riding no subscription in forums, getting math equations to show up or journals disappearing. I think your comments presuppose someone acting as a Moodle admin, which is I think a very questionable assumption. In one private university moodle I know of the admin works several times zones away, had no additional staff, the Moodle was several major versions outdated and the course faciliators arguably clueless
  • I could argue that managing lesson logic IS programming (I suppose one's take on that depends whether one took logic in the Math Department or the CS Dept. ;=} ). Instead I will posit that the skills inherent in programming are inherent in modifying behavior and providing direct instruction. And I argue thereupon that I continue to be horrified by the inability of new teachers to think in such a fashion, let alone "program" activities to engender such behavior in others. Citizens of the US are so quick to non-sequiturs for a reason, and I think the reason has to do with a poorly developed or missing understanding of logic.
  • And finally to your straw man. To counter my argument by claiming teachers need not know how to program misses the very point you acknowledge I make; teachers are maxed out now and have no time to do anything more. Call it programming, call it curriculum design, call it what you will; districxts are opposed to teachers doing it, teachers have no time during the day to do it, and doing it (unless it is the directive of some hippy dippy superintendent who, like the past Mayor of Balitmore, doesn't care that everyone is running off the cliff like lemmings) is NOT going to make a teacher's life easier.
  • Let me offer this algebraic formulation. Local middle school teachers have 5 classes of 32-35 students and 50 minutes of planning time. For sake of argument lets say the teacher has 160 students. This means that during the teachers contracted time the teacher can spend no more than $$250/160$$ minutes per student per week outside if the actual class period.... when exactly is this teacher going to develop and deploy CMS?
And while your closing argument sounds like you moonlight for the Obama campaign, as a practical matter the hurdle between using moodle simply as a place to post non-Moodle assignments and the like and using Moodle for actual instruction (and I am excluding simple powerpoints as nothing more than multimedia outlines) is HUGE and I think negotiated a great deal less frequently then might be hoped.

Hawthorne's Puritan forbears would have seen Goodman Brown and Waiting for Godot as the work of the devil (much as became of Last Temptation of Christ and Satanic Verses) because the work threatens their underlying premise. In the US the thrust is NOT to be creative for dozens of reasons and as a result of dozens of factors and teachers who jump into Moodle can find themselves in hot water as Moodle can be seen as a threat to the order of the known universe and humans burn humans that threaten the order of the known universe....... evil

OK, enough doom and gloom! Let's execute the accused and move on to what flavor cake we want at next Tuesdays staff meeting ;=}
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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Don Hinkelman -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers
Hi Marc,

>> "I don't know that I have ever seen a situation in which a public school teacher had time during their contract day to develop curriculum, let alone develop the application or programming skills to effectively use Moodle."

This is partially true. Most teachers will not develop a module. However, they should not and need not develop one. Typically in a region like Hokkaido, we have say 30 schools using Moodle, and 300 teachers using it. Maybe 3-4 teachers like me, usually faculty responsible for curriculum management develop modules. That is enough. Through teacher training workshops we hear about needs and help the innovator-teachers accomplish their needs--by applying existing modules in creative ways, and by developing new ones. I teach about 30-40 of these advanced teachers every year. They then go back to their schools and introduce these solutions to the other 300 teachers who like Moodle but don't really have time to investigate it or get trained in it. Thus Moodle has grown exponentially in Japan by this slow growth method--3>>30>>300. On the the contrary, commercial LMS are dying here--WebTube, Blackboard and others are approaching zero market share, simply because they are not flexible. There is no teacher enthusiasm, and the standard answer for a feature request is "we will consider it".

Usually, teachers apply Moodle by adding a single simple piece of content or activity to their existing course. It is a blended learning approach--relying intensely on the current face-to-face teaching patterns. Next year they add another piece. So they only have to invest an hour or two per year if they wish. They do not have to develop curriculum--simply use the current curriculum and add Moodle where it makes sense--where it saves time or generates student enthusiasm.

By the way, for teachers who do want to develop a full course syllabus, but only want to use Word to develop it in, I recommend Wimba Create, a lovely authoring system for Moodle and other LMS. Interesting, a hybrid commercial-opensource ecology here. I think the real world is not a simple black/white, either/or, commercial/open scenario.
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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Anthony Borrow -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Marc,

Your points are well taken. I am currently reading a book by Arthur Combs who while a little dated I think has some good insights into what makes good teachers. He too touches upon how so much of the system does not encourage the creativity and other healthy characteristics that would ultimately support good teaching. I'm probably a bit overly idealistic to think that by using Moodle it may free the teacher up to do things a little differently; however, my experience was that using Moodle actually did allow me to focus more on my students in the classroom because I was able to move things like quizzes to homework assignments which freed up that classroom time for personal interaction. That being said, I was not in a public school when I was using Moodle but I did develop an appreciation for the amount of time it takes to plan and teach and there simply is not enough time in the day. I agree that a Moodle system should have an administrator. If a teacher is trying to set up their own Moodle site they will likely need to have some technical knowledge; however, I know that I have read about Moodle hosting for individual teachers which would greatly reduce what they need to know. I also agree that having some technical knowledge can be quite helpful if a teacher expects to make effective use of technology in the classroom. Teachers who have a better understanding of instructional design and how to teach in an online fashion will be able to make better use of the tools that Moodle provides.

Peace - Anthony
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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Tony Hursh -
Someone has to manage the Moodle

Sure enough, but someone also has to manage the Blackboard server or whatever other commercial package you're using.

If you don't want to manage it yourself, there are plenty of Moodle partners who'll deal with installation, patching, etc. for you, yes? Probably for a lot less than the Blackboard folks will charge, yes?

This doesn't really seem like a very strong objection to me.

when exactly is this teacher going to develop and deploy CMS?

When do they develop their paper lession plans?






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In reply to Tony Hursh

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Marc Grober -
Actually, most of the lesson plans I have seen are simply cut and pasted from the shrink wrap curriculum if they are created at all, and the outlining of a lesson plan is a far cry from curriculum development.

A District of 3000 teachers implemented an in-house C## app to allow all staff to post assignments, materials, etc. This app has been in place for some 5 years and while it does not include the kitchen sink, is very respectable. Random sampling shows insignificant use of the application though all teachers have been provided info on it and free training is not only provided (for which you credit even!) but is available online, though the interface is pretty intuitive.

The same District just entered into a contract for zangle which some argue will cost the district $4M/yr. because, in part (according to its press releases), parents are asking for online availability of course info and grades (all already available through infrastructure currently in place).

And as to management of CMS, my experience is that Districts do a damn poor job of this, but that is not so troubling as CMS is used so narrowly. Change that to make CMS a major function but without adequate technical support (can you imagine a n enterprise that can't even keep its mail server up trying to keep a Moodle up for thousands of teachers and students - LOL) this will be a disaster.

The best models I have seen for secondary students are school or team moodles, and they depend entirely on the skills of a key teacher who IS NOT getting paid for the hours devoted to managing the Moodle
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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Tony Hursh -
Marc:

1) It doesn't take "hours" to "manage the Moodle". Once it's set up, there's almost no overhead involved. If the process is too daunting, there are any number of professionals (Moodle Partners and otherwise) who'll be happy to take on that chore for a reasonable fee. Certainly less than $4 million/year. smile

2) I've been teaching technologically-naive teachers how to create Moodle courses (including curriculum development) for about 5 years now, with (so far) a 100% success rate.


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In reply to Tony Hursh

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Marc Grober -
Frankly, Tony, I have to dispute your claim that Moodle imposes almost no overhead and I think the forums are packed with notes from teachers who might agree with me. I run Moodles na ddeal regularly with others that run moodles and while the software is relatively stable, things do go bunp, from security issues (oh my!) to forum subscription issues (still buggy).

I am very glad you have had such success. Would you care to share the Moodle address so that one can look about and see how many courses are being offered via the Moodles you support. I am also curious as to what you mean by a 100% success rate. Do you mean that the teacher was able to create a class? Well, "creating" a class and having that class provide instruction are two different things, and if you are touting class creation as a measuring tool I am afraid that its pretty meaningless.

However, as a trainer I am sure you have examples of the courses your teachers have created so if you would like to share them I am sure this will boost your rep as a trainer as well as demonstrate your point. I know there have been repeated calls for course examples and precious few reponses.

And, as far as Moodle Partners..... not much less than $4 million, and as noted in these forums, far more than could be expneded on any initial roll-out (maybe an order of magnitude....)
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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by John Isner -
However, as a trainer I am sure you have examples of the courses your teachers have created so if you would like to share them I am sure this will boost your rep as a trainer as well as demonstrate your point.

A couple of years ago, Tony put me in touch with two of the teachers who had been through the UIUC CTER program. They graciously gave me copies of their courses (without student data). I use both courses as examples of "state of the art" in science and mathematics in my Moodle training workshops. So I can vouch for Tony and the UIUC program!
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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Tony Hursh -
Frankly, Tony, I have to dispute your claim that Moodle imposes almost no overhead and I think the forums are packed with notes from teachers who might agree with me

Marc: Moodle has 21 million users. Do you have any evidence to show that the "packed forums" represent anything more than a tiny fraction of Moodle users?

Would you care to share the Moodle address so that one can look about and see how many courses are being offered via the Moodles you support

http://ctercms.ed.uiuc.edu
http://cterfile.ed.uiuc.edu/moodle
http://cterhost.ed.uiuc.edu/moodle

Also in my college, but not directly supported by me:

http://learn.ed.uiuc.edu/

However, as a trainer

I am not a "trainer", as could be determined by a quick glance at my profile. I am an educator.

There's a difference.

And I'm not particularly interested in flogging my reputation. We have plenty of applicants to our program.


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In reply to Tony Hursh

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Tony Hursh -
Marc: Moodle has 21 million users.

Moodle also has about 2 million teachers.

If we assume that every teacher had a problem once a month that required a forum post, we'd expect to see 24 million posts a year, or about 65,000 a day. We don't.


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In reply to Tony Hursh

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Marc Grober -
Well, I was going to walk away from this based on John's unsolicited testimonial, but, this ( http://www.moodleus.org/blog/?p=120 ) came to my attention......

And, whatever my predilections, the comments appear to support my points (i.e. designing developing and deploying instruction is a far cry from using Moodle to post materials and Moodle require regular and ongoing administration).

And please, I am not trying to engage in any ad homina - I am not suggesting that Tony nor anyone else can't train, educate or teach certificated staff to create Moodle based direct instruction. I am just highly gratified when one of my students does that successfully, and it would appear to require such substantial resources and organizational skills as to suggest to me that such practice within the confines of a contract day would in fact be insignificant. And I have to argue that the failure of such lessons to be shared speaks to me.

Sorry, but I am not going to accept the argument about 21 Million Moodler users at face value.

Lastly, I can see no diff between training, educating and teaching save some humanist nonsense. Reminds me of my old school days when ninnys proclaimed that humans were the only beings with language, that used tools, that had emotions, etc. There is no diff, so get over yourself....
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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Bob Kaehms -
These are exactly the kinds of issues that I am interested in! After teaching Algebra for a year (after 20-30 yrs in industry), I am well aware (locally) of those infrastructure issues. The million dollar question,in my mind, is how do you get past those kinds of problems?
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In reply to Bob Kaehms

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Marc Grober -
HOORAY! That's what I want hear!

OK, I will calm down a bit..... I just wax a bit thorny because sometimes I think we spend too much time singing psalms and too little times addressing problems. However, you will have to wade through all my rhetoric to get to my suggestions....

Tony argues I think that with a bit of training here and there things will move by way of example (I would call this a rabbinic model). I might compare that to a khanid model and a bornagain model (if you don't I will burn down your house vs if you don't you will be denied a future.) This is a bit tongue in cheek and certainly not meant to be exhaustive.

I think the rabbinic model model has something to be said for it, but runs into difficulties on a number of levels. Critically, for a district to buy into something based on a perception of successful use elsewhere, the example has to be regarded as a peer. A district of 50K students is not going to regard the practices of a program with 200 students as a model of praxis, and this means that infusion must work its way "up" from course to team, from team to school, from schools to small district, etc , etc. On the other side of the coin, we are talking about investment in training Moodle users and that resources has to come from somewhere. So, my argument is that if Moodle could find a Great Cities school district to agree to use Moodle for 5 years with a Moodle Partner or Moddle Parter Consortium willing to offer the services free (well, the District would have to be told it is not free, but that private foundation grant funds are making a grant of $500,000 available)then growth would be exponential. Out of pocket expenses? Maybe $50,000, a small price to pay for the possible results.....

Do I think this will happen..... Nope. Otherwise it would have been done already.... not a novel idea.

Other models are arguably backed by the imprimatur of big money. Moodle is not going to benefit in that manner in the USA unless the next pres says "Be Moodle or be Grantless".... I don't see MD et al contributing several hundred thousand dollars to any candidate to buy such an endorsement.

Where is public education money, though? Maybe the thing to do is pitch Moodle to China and we might have a khanid Moodle Renaissance in China.... Perphaps more plausible than you might think, but since when have Western edicational programs ever acknowledged the benefits of a non-Western education other than the Suzuki method? Even American respect for a degree from a European post secondary program is based on little more than degrees from Harvard or Yale.... its not the instruction you get, but the prestige from the people you mingle with etc.....

And, underlying all is the inability of some nations to come to grips with their educational failure.... In the US behaviorism is still regarded as bestial and direct instruction as demeaning. While "discovery" may work in some circumstances, it is rarely adequately implemented with disastrous results. And if you train to teachers to only serve up shrink wrap curriculum, you have a time bomb in your lap.

Do I see other answers.... actually, I think Moodle can take advantage of the home school movement by providing Ib based home schooling through moodle. I want to work for that outfit, so if you find it, tell me where they are........

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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Anthony Borrow -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Marc - Interestingly enough, I know of someone who runs a not-for-profit online bookstore who uses the funds he collects to help fund public school initiatives. One of his goals was to make Moodle available for a school district. AFAIK, he has not yet been successful, but I remain hopeful and supportive of his endeavors. Peace - Anthony
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In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Ralf Hilgenstock -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Translators
Reading this discussion with a little distance (of time and from Germany) I will add some thoughts based on my experiences with educational systems here.

Introducing a system like Moodle is a school wide project and a process of organisational development
What happens in most schools? Two or three teachers have seen Moodle and want to use it in their own classes. They write a paper and discuss it in a teachers conference or suggest it to the school board. If they have some influence and can say that it won't need money its not a problem to get a decision about using Moodle at school. What happens next? Three teachers and perhaps half a dozen more teachers are using Moodle in this year. But not more happens.
An other case. After some time of discussion the board asks about organization of Moodle system and more. Teacher see that working with Moodle in administration needs some knowledge and a little bit of time, that is time they are working for other teachers, but not their own lessons. They are asking for relief hours (German: Entlastungsstunden) to do this work.

What are the problems?
  • Working with an LMS in school is a project of organizational and behavioural change.
    If you don't try to use an LMS as a private instrument for a single teacher or a few teachers you have to create a project and to think about a concept including organizational processes, teaching processes, collaboration of teachers and role changing of teachers.
  • If you have a school library, all people know you didn't need money for buying books. You also have to organize the library, the books, lending and care. Why does anybody think you don't have to do such things with an LMS? Because its free? Because its at the web?

Creating content and creating curricula isn't a big thing. But it is a big thing to change the own (teachers) mental concept of teaching.
Creating content is a process each teacher is doing every week several times. Most German teacher do it alone without contact to colleagues. There is no culture of sharing content. In consequence they say, creating own content needs a lot of time and its much easier to look at a school book and make some copies in the morning at school. Its against the law because most schoolbooks are copyright protected. Lots of teachers are collecting content from articles, books, television or web at home all live long. Planning lessons is looking at the own library, archive or hard disk and mashing up to a new lesson.
Creating a curriculum is a very big expression. Teachers learn that only a few teacher can create a curriculum and there are different commissions that have to discuss it over years with the ministery. A normal German teacher doesn't create an own curriculum.
From discussions in ministeries about teacher generated content I know that they have an own view on teachers work. They say: 'Content from schoolbook publishers are good quality contents. We have to make a quality check for teachers own content before we can share it with other teachers'.
Teachers learn that copyright law is a real big issue. Teachers are half a way in prison if they share content. Some time its been arguing that lesson concepts are copyright protected. Its a legend. But it works.
In consequence teachers have learned, copy from all media, but use it only by yourself and don't share it with anybody.
  • The next consequence is, beginning to use an LMS creates a lot of workload for each teacher to create new content, concepts and lessons. Because they don't do it in teamwork its really a lot of time consuming work.
  • And most content of Moodlecourse are a collecting of papers, links and not driven by pedagogical concepts. Trusting in constructivism concepts makes it much easier to prepare lessons. But who trusts in the communicational process with students? Most lessons a teacher centered because there is no belief in the interest of students and their own activity.
Now, what is my consequence as a consultant working with schools and other organisations?
  1. Define what are the expected outcomes of working with an LMS at school for lessons, cooperation, teaching and learning concepts?
  2. Plan a starting project with one field of study, but with all teachers teaching this field.
  3. Organize processes
  4. Organize cooperation
  5. Organize conceptual and content related teamwork
  6. Publish the goals, processes, progress and the successs
  7. Talk about success and experience with collegues
  8. Show what you've done and what your students made.
  9. Create lessons learnt and publish it at school
  10. Don't think you will be ready in three months. Think in terms of three to five years.
School systems ae very different from culture to culture. In my experience school systems are very slow changing systems. Change processes at schools needs a good leadership and not a one time action of starting an LMS.


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In reply to Ralf Hilgenstock

Re: Commercial vs. Open Source: Weighing the Issues

by Marc Grober -
Great analysis Ralf!

And while there are items identified worth debating, I think most can agree that educational systems are slow to change and that while educational leadership is critical it is often found wanting (I think for the usual bureacratic reasons). I would add that because core leadership is lacking and fundamentals lost in management that educational institutions tend to engage in dramatic swings in methods (think "Whole Language" or "Every Day Math") and will often discard initiatives as not working though the methofs have never been fully implemented and there is no data on efficacy, while implementing methods simply based on the latest hypothetical fad, as opposed to long term data driven decisions (such as that which supports direct instruction.)

The result I think is an algebra that finds that the key to suvccess with any educational model is educational leadership at the unit level that is competent and data driven and able to withstand the demands of district management, coupled with professional and well paid teachers. Both those criteria put responsibility for most failure in the lap of post secondary professional programs.
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