Moodle Email Digest ? ?

Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by warmac - -
Number of replies: 23
I gota say this idea for having an email digest type is wacked big grin

Can someone in this universe explain to me how this make sense ?

Why wasn't it set up like normal forum where a person starts a thread and if they want to receive notification they only receive email based on the thread they started

The option should be : send me email of posts to this thread not this forum

In Moodle you recieve 1 email with 10,000 posts it's an absurd idea but I'm sure after posting this someone will try and validate it for me - if you do you better have a good answer lol

And please don't tell me there are other options you can choose as well, I've tried each one and they are all wacked in my opinion.

It would be better if there were a 4th option not to receive any notification while still be subcribed to the forum.

Or to only have it where you receive nofication off the post you created and not everyone elses posts.

This is what happens when you break and/or try to reinvent the wheel, there are some traditional forums aspects that should never be changed this is one of them smile



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In reply to warmac -

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators
Hi warmac,
I fully second your views on this question, which has already been raised here and, IMHO, never got a satisfactory answer.
The possibility to subscribe and receive notification of posts to a thread rather than a complete forum is  a standard feature of many forums, including WebCT, which I felt was just right when we used WebCT at our institution.
I still do not understand why this obviously good solution is not implemented in Moodle...surprise
All the best,
Joseph
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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Mark Stevens -
Hi guys,

By subscribing to only a thread, you are ignoring what anyone else says on any other topic.  IMO, not a good option in an educational setting.  What if a new posting is from a teacher announcing/changing an assignment or test?  What if a classmate posts some good news?  You will miss important and interesting discussions because you are not subscribed.  You might as well not be in the course.

This is similar to the debate over the default value of "Subscribe me to this forum" when you post.  Discussion is good smile  It only takes a second (or less) to delete an unwanted post.  I've taught 21 groups of students (over 300 students total), and the forums are the most popular module.  No student has requested this feature.

Regarding the digest option, I personally never use digests with any mailing list or forum.  Digests don't let you sort/search/filter easily, and I would recommend setting up some filters instead of using digests in general.  Thunderbird has some great filtering capabilities.

Regarding WebCT's forums, it won't be long until no one mentions this wink
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In reply to Mark Stevens

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Joseph Rézeau -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators

Hi Mark,

I think there is a misunderstanding in this topic, because we are talking about 2 completely different situations where we are trying to apply the same logic.

  • Situation 1: "normal" Moodle course, at an educational institution
    • I agree with Mark's argument that the option of subscribing to single threads rather than to a whole forum is potentially not a good option (for all the pedagogic reasons he mentions).
  • Situation 2: the present situation, on the Moodle.org site
    • In this situation, we have a very large number of forums, and some of those forums have an enormous number of threads (General Problems has more than 5,000 threads!). In this situation it would perfectly make sense for the users to be able to choose to subscribe to just one thread, not a whole forum. Like many general forums on the Internet, WebCT's Aks Dr C users' help forum has a "watch this thread" option which I have found extremely useful.

Conclusion

Let's not mix up different needs and let's not apply the same "rules" to different situations and different needs. Mark, you say "discussion is good"smile. Yes, but having your mailbox swamped by scores of messages because Moodle forums do not offfer the option of being subscribed to a single forum is not good.angry

Probably it was not such a good decision to use the standard Moodle forum module on Moodle.org as the basis for user help, and a more "standard" forum software should be used. This has been suggested by Moodle users, e.g. here.

All the best,

Joseph

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In reply to Joseph Rézeau

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Mark Stevens -
Joseph,

I feel your pain smile  But I have to disagree with you.  smile  The Using Moodle course is an educational setting.  I have learned so much from the discussions in all of the courses on Moodle.org... especially in Using Moodle.

Regarding your point about the 5,000 threads in general problems.  I think you are looking at it in the wrong way.  There have been 18 posts in the last 24 hours in the general problems forum.  If I had posted a problem there, I wouldn't feel swamped by 18 emails:  especially if I were expecting or had received a free answer to my query.  Most importantly, while subscribed to the whole forum I can learn from the other postings which will save me time in the long run.  Don't you want to read about other problems that Moodlers are experiencing?  No time to help them?  No time to learn from them?  When I don't have time to read emails from Using Moodle, I click "delete" or "mark as read".  smile

Going a bit off-topic now:  The Using Moodle course is best example of collaboration in education that I know of, and the forums are what make it the best (please show me a better example).  I think it's the best because people are listening to the whole conversation and not selfishly tuning out everyone else.  As I mentioned before, communication is good smile
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In reply to Mark Stevens

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Mark Schumann -
I would like jump in here and voice my opinion if I may.  I agree with Joseph and warmac, but I also understand the need for both systems... so why not have both?  In many situations, mostly individual course forums, I imagine the best system would be to have the teacher assign a forum to "force subscription".  In other situations, such as site-wide forums with heavy traffic, I believe an individual thread subscription option would be greatly beneficial.

I really don't believe that forcing users to receive a flood of emails in order to keep up with their part in the community is acceptable.  If I want to keep up with topics I have posted across 10 different forums here on moodle.org, it would be an unnessasary time waster to wade through all of the emails i'm sent through the current subscription option.  It may sound selfish but I believe if i'm interested in subscribing the one thread or the entire forum, it should be an option either way. 

Perhaps I'm looking at this the wrong way, but I do understand the communication and collaboration the current system offers.  What I have noticed, however, is that there appears to be a number of threads here that seem to get abandoned before a resolution is made.  There could be many reasons for this, but perhaps if the two or more people conversing in those threads had been able to subscribe to those threads individually, the issue could have been resolved more easily.  I'd love to keep up with certain threads, such as the development of certain modules/blocks, but I find the current system doesn't support my method. 

Just my opinion smile
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In reply to Mark Schumann

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Mark Stevens -
so why not have both?

It's open source:  no one is stopping you from coding it or paying for it to be coded smile  Maybe Martin would start using it in Using Moodle's forums.  smile
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In reply to Mark Stevens

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Mark Schumann -
I don't have the capability or monetary capacity to code it smile Perhaps one day, but for the moment it's just a suggestion.
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In reply to Mark Schumann

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Steve Hyndman -

And it's a very good suggestion Mark.

Discussion forums are the foundation of most pedegogical approaches to online learning (aside from individual, self-study, approaches)...that may change years down the road with new technologies when more people have high-speed access, but today, discussion fourms are still king. If the propriety systems forums are better than yours (which is currently the case), then it will be tough to convert people.

As has been pointed out in this thread and elsewhere in the forums....flexability is good.

Also, I agree that a really great thing about open source is that people can code their own improvements....but as has been discussed in other threads here, it does take a programmer to do that. Unless an organization is going to be happy with Moodle the way it is, they had better have a good in-house programmer...that's no myth.

Just my opinion smile

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In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Mark Stevens -
Sharing opinions is what makes us human smile  I'm glad I'm subscribed to this forum smile  To those bored with this thread, hit delete smile

And it's a very good suggestion Mark.

I haven't heard what Martin D. has to say about this, but I will go out on a limb and say it's not a very good suggestion and that's why it's not in Moodle's forums.

If the propriety systems forums are better than yours (which is currently the case), then it will be tough to convert people.

I'm not quite sure about your reference, so I'm going to give two replies:

If, when you claim "the propriety [proprietary] systems forums are better" you mean Blackboard's forums, then I'd point you to the Humboldt study.  As you know, migrating from Blackboard to Moodle does not depend on which system has better forums.  However, I think this speaks somewhat to the question about people adopting Moodle.

If you mean forum software such as phpBB2 or a proprietary forum application, then I think Moodle is an easy sell due to Moodle's calendar, RSS capabilities, quizzes, lessons, glossaries, chats, assignments, choices, surveys, wikis, and workshops which come standard without any need for a programmer.

To summarize my opinion:
Subscribe to a thread = ignore other threads/Moodlers
Negative side effects:  You can't learn from or help others.

Subscribe to a forum = I want to receive emails from other Moodlers
Negative side effects:  lots of email from busy forums.
Suggestions for coping with lots of email:  unsubscribe, message filtering, mark as read, and the delete button.
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In reply to Mark Stevens

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Steve Hyndman -

I haven't heard what Martin D. has to say about this, but I will go out on a limb and say it's not a very good suggestion and that's why it's not in Moodle's forums.

Well....we agree on one point...you are going out on a limb to say providing users with options is not a very good suggestion wink. I hope there is a thick, soft field of grass for you to land on when that limb breaks smile.

By the way...is this what you are referring to in the Humbolt "study" mixed

Student Satisfaction
Discussion Boards were easy to use?

Blackboard:

  • 69.2% strongly agree
  • 30.8% somewhat agree

Moodle:

  • 57.1% strongly agree
  • 28.6% somewhat agree
  • 7.1% neutral

Steve

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In reply to Steve Hyndman

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Mark Stevens -

Steve,

Providing users with good options is good. Providing users with options that limit communication is not good. Can we agree that enabling subscription to a thread within a forum decreases communication? As a language teacher, my goal is to increase communication. I would never enable this option in a class forum. Would you? What would you tell a student who says, "Dr. Steve, That's not fair. I didn't see that posting because I wasn't subscribed to that thread"?

I've seen threaded subscription on WebCT and I've used it on computer help forums. I hope Moodle doesn't become like either of these.

Regarding the Humboldt study, I was referring to the overall findings:

Student Satisfaction
Which do you prefer, Moodle or Blackboard?

No preference 42.9%
Moodle - 35.7%
Blackboard - 21.4%

[I'm curious why you refer to their work as a "study".]

In addition to the reference you cited about discussion boards, their study also referenced Moodle 1.3's inability to track unread messages. It would be interesting to see new comparisons with the latest versions of each system. Of course many universities would have to upgrade. Anyone know how much it costs to upgrade Blackboard these days?

By the way, and this leads somewhat off topic, a colleague and I were interested in doing a comparison study, but we abandoned our plans because we do so many things in Moodle which are impossible to do in Blackboard. For example, we have a glossary of student grammar and usage errors that automatically checks forum posts and flags the errors with feedback and auto-linking resources. I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe Blackboard's forums currently have this ability.

--Mark

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In reply to Mark Stevens

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Mark Schumann -
I agree that most course-based forums would use forum-wide subscription, but we're not only talking about forums within individual courses.  I have a student discussion forum available to all students that is generally used for off-topic chat.  I wouldn't expect each student to be subscribed to that forum because of its heavy use, effectively flooding a student's inbox with unnecessary clutter and taking away from their more important course-based forum emails. 

The only request here is to have it selectable as an option.  If the issue is that students can turn it on and are then cut off from the rest of the discussion, isn't that a current issue anyway if they choose not to be subscribed at all?  Isn't a teacher who turns off the "force subscription" option going against a communitive and collaborative method of online learning?  If we're letting them do that, why not allow this suggestion as an opion?
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In reply to Mark Stevens

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Steve Hyndman -

Providing users with options that limit communication is not good.

I disagree...I don't see how forcing users to get what they may not want is better than putting the user in control of what they get. 

my goal is to increase communication. I would never enable this option in a class forum. Would you?

Yes...the whole point is, the student (user) would select it if they wanted to use it. In fact, I don't force my students to be subscribed to my online discussion forums...they are required to participate in the online discussions and I'm very clear and specific about this requirement, but it's their choice to receive email of discussion posts or not.

What would you tell a student who says, "Dr. Steve, That's not fair. I didn't see that posting because I wasn't subscribed to that thread"?

I would say "then subscribe to it, or the entire forum."...and I may even add the teen-aged term (Duh!) to drive the point home. smile 

Regarding the Humboldt study, I was referring to the overall findings. Student Satisfaction
Which do you prefer, Moodle or Blackboard?

Well, then I would say you are subscribed to the wrong thread (this thread is about forum Email Digest and a request for thread subscription) and the wrong forum (this one is about the forum module), not overall satisfaction smile. I personally agree, and have stated before in these forums, that "overall" Moodle is superior to Blackboard....but not in the area of discussion forums...in my opinion.

Steve

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In reply to warmac -

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Brian King -
I have found this also to be a problem on moodle.org. Theoretically, all the posts are valuable and interesting - but I don't have time to read all of them!

I have altered my 1.5.3 cvs installation to also allow subscription to individual discussions. See bug 1626 for more info.

If enough people are OK with having an option to allow subscriptions to individual discussions, maybe we can get this integrated.
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In reply to Brian King

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Brian Sea -
Allowing the option can't hurt, provided that the instructor can turn this option off if they don't like it. 

Yes, people can press the delete button for e-mails they don't want.. but the most likely behavior is to unsubscribe from the entire forum.  This stops all communication instead of letting the students (or instructor) decide the amount of information they would like in their inbox.  In the world of OSS, providing more options (not less) has always been seen as a Good Thing.

This addition doesn't force a behavior onto the forums.. it provides an option to alter the behavior.  Whether you use this option or not is up to you.. but at least it's there.

--sea
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In reply to Brian King

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Jon Bolton -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers
Brian, would you be willing to share the code? I see from Bug 1626 that there were no objections to it going into CVS - did it actually make it?
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In reply to Brian King

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Rob Barreca -
Would you mind posting a patch at bug 1626 so others can implement your work? I'd like to have the option for my users.
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In reply to Rob Barreca

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by N Hansen -
Very odd-the post I am replying to appeared in the random unanswered posts block. That shouldn't be happening.
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In reply to warmac -

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by N Hansen -
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Warmac would not be so annoyed by this behavior if Moodle were not so busy. If there were only 5 or 6 posts a day in this course then making a single digest email would be more reasonable than if there are 50 or 60. One needs to distinguish between the technical problem and the problem of the actual implementation.
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In reply to N Hansen

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Mark Lewis -
On the more general question of "do we or don't we send a email for EVERY post to EVERY forum?" I believe it is too easy to overlook potential uses for forums that may make email copies impractical for the student. What is wrong (as an alternative, mind you) with considering that some forum uses SHOULD be viewed JUST WITHIN THE FORUM and not extended to the email box of every student in the course every time someone posts to the forum?

Some forums are topical discussions and it is easy to see why a complete mailing would be suggested.

Other forums may be chatter that people (students, users, teachers?) should go look at within the Moodle site, because it is:
- possibly irrelevant unless logged in at the time
- restricted to use only when the student is within the classroom (which, incidently, is one way I use Moodle as a learning aid; within the classroom itself and not extended past our walls.) The "must email everyone" concept violates that method of use.
- when the students are using a forum as a team tool as a group. They are working in the SAME ROOM at the SAME TIME. They do not need emailed copies of the postings. They have the forum itself in context and can print, save or email a copy of the whole set of postings to themselves if desired.

As to this forum, itself, I am sorry but I have to disagree with the "you are either in or out" opinion. Getting dozens of emails about technical discussions about esoteric issues of modules that I don't use doesn't enrich me, just clutters up my email, making me less likely to attempt to find messages that actually are relevant to my needs or interests.

Yes, I can filter, but with the volume experienced, the pile gets too big to sort through over the course of a week and I end up deleting most wholesale without reading any of them. Again, it might be different if I spent the day in front of my own computer at home, but I don't. I spend the day using a lab computer. I am forced to manage my email through a web mail interface that can be ponderous when forced to deal with high volumes of mail. Many of my students are stuck with a similar web-based interface to their mail. I usually wait until I am home to consider email, except rare exceptions. And the pile gets large fast.

Honestly, at this point, I think the volume of mail coming through has caused my ISP to flag it as spam and I don't think messages are getting through from moodle.org. But maybe I was unsubscribed because of inactivity. I guess I'll know tomorrow!

I am not sure why (at least in my situation) giving the teacher or admin a choice to limit emailed copies to the forums that need them violates any principles of the moodle project. To me it seems like A) people are using forums in diverse or atypical ways and B) just a matter of housekeeping. Personally, I see no "slippery slope" in this topic. The default could be "on." but I could really use an OFF checkbox or menu choice as well. I'll leave the arguement about whether a user-based control of this option is wise. In my case, it is not relevant.
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In reply to Mark Lewis

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Mark Lewis -
ehhhh, ummmm....

Friends, on investigation I may have found a measure of control that allows me to accomplish what I need in my own use of Moodle. If old hands find my posting seems non-sensical, please be tolerant with someone who has been working all night and probably overlooked some obvious points (solutions?) before posting.

Boy, forming cogent thoughts at 5 in the morning (still awake from the previous day!) is hard. Thanks for your tolerance of any "numb-brain" syndrome that is evidenced in my post.

My feelings about the forum threads here still stand, however.
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In reply to warmac -

Re: Moodle Email Digest ? ?

by Gene Koo -

Marc, I don't know you personally and have no reason to make any assumptions about you; at the same time, I don't appreciate what I hear are your assumptions about how the rest of us "should" participate in a community. There are many legitimate reasons why an individual would want to subscribe to a particular thread but not the entire forum, yet still also consider him/herself part of the community. When you state that the only way to be a responsible member of the community is to receive vast amounts of email notifications about 99% irrelevant topics, then you are discouraging people from joining the community, which for an open-source project is death.

If Moodle is built for pedagogy, and pedagogy requires 100% buyin, then is it possible that Moodle is not the right platform for Moodle.org?

Thanks to Moodle.org, I finally understand and empathize with the complaints of my students (all lawyers with full caseloads) about the amount of email they receive from us.

I would put forth two values to balance with the value of full-engaged communities: (1) options are good, and (2) by assuming you know the purposes of the end-user, you also restrict the freedom and imagination of the end-user to do things you never envisioned.

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