Testers needed for audio conference

Testers needed for audio conference

by Tony Hursh -
Number of replies: 44
I'm doing some experimenting with Flash Communications Server. Although FCS isn't (yet) directly integrated with Moodle, I'd like to change that. smile

If you have a microphone and speakers, and a couple of minutes to spare, feel free to visit:

http://cternt1.ed.uiuc.edu/flashcom/samples/audioconf/audioconf.html

I'll try to be in there for the next half hour or so, but you're welcome to try it any time.

Note that the demo version of FCS we have only supports 5 simultaneous users. You can get a 50-seat education license for about $300, or rent space from commercial hosts for about $1/user/month. This is quite a bit cheaper than Elluminate (which we're also evaluating) and also has the advantage of not using Java (which will make Martin happy smile).


So far it seems fairly easy to set up. The slightly trickier part is going to be making it use Moodle authentication (also it'd be nice if the theme reflected the Moodle theme automatically).




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In reply to Tony Hursh

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Tony Hursh -
I'm still in there at the moment. Just had a nice chat with Jamie (I think Jamie Pratt). Not bad at all!

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In reply to Tony Hursh

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Jamie Pratt -
Hi,

Yes, that was me you talked to on your chat page.

What I like about the Flash comms server is that the interface for it is just another Flash movie so no new plug-ins have to be used.

Is it 300 dollars for one year of licensing? I think it also comes with a limit to the number of simultaneous users or a limit on bandwidth. Is that right or is it unlimited?

Good luck with your integration efforts. Let me know if you have any questions I might be able to help with or would like some help.

Jamie
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In reply to Jamie Pratt

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by W Page -
Hi Jamie!

Yes with Macromedia, in addition to a high priced yearly lease, there is a limit on the amount of simultaneous users.

I just have my fingers crossed that someone will come up with an open source solution like Ming [http://ming.sourceforge.net] for video chat or even voice chat. Ming is usually installed on servers and generates SWF ("Flash") format movies  like Flash drawboards and other things. This way one does not have to deal with additional costs or special servers, just good coding.

I can hope. smile

WP1
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In reply to W Page

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Jamie Pratt -

The table below is from the Macromedia web site :


The following table provides a pricing overview of all the Editions and Capacity Packs for Macromedia Flash Communication Server MX 1.5:

Developer Edition
Maximum kilobits per second Maximum Connections Price Expiration
250 5 Free Never
Personal Edition
Maximum Megabits per second Maximum Connections Price Expiration
1 50 $499 Never
Professional Edition
Maximum Megabits per second Maximum Connections Price Expiration
10 2,500 $4,500 Never
90 Day Unlimited Capacity Pack
Maximum Megabits per second Maximum Connections Price Expiration
Unlimited Unlimited $7,500 90 days



These prices are full price not with the educational discount. I think at one poin they were only selling one year licenses for the Flash Communication Server software but now it seems licenses are unlimited.

I think that though Ming and AMFPHP and the Flash remoting for PHP software were later made available by developers who reverse engineered the Flash protocols and file formats the same may not happen for Flash Communication Server, although I would love to see it happen. The work people did that made Flash remoting work in PHP and which made PHP able to dynamically generate Flash .swf movies increased the applications of the Flash player, which was good for Macromedia. I would guess though that if someone produces an open source alternative to the Communication Server then Macromedia will take legal action to protect the revenue they are getting from the application.
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In reply to Jamie Pratt

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
The Flash format is openly published, there was no reverse engineering necessary:

    http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/open/licensing/fileformat/

There is no need to clone the Flash Communication Server and upset Macromedia.  An open-source alternative need not be compatible in the least with the details of what the FCS does.  All that is needed is something to accept, process and distribute media streams using techniques that Flash movies can handle.
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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by W Page -
QUOTE:
"An open-source alternative need not be compatible in the least with the details of what the FCS does. All that is needed is something to accept, process and distribute media streams using techniques that Flash movies can handle." Martin Dougiamas

Hi Martin!

Is there anyone you may be aware of who may have an alpha or beta project going on that will do AV streaming or even just "audio" streaming.
  • on Linux? and/or
  • by adding a module to Linux?
  • using flash withing PHP but not needing FCS?

The reason why I am asking is because, it appears as though there is a way to code for a flash whiteboard using Ming [http://ming.sourceforge.net]. But, I have not been able to find a solution to streaming media for video and audio conferencing using flash without dealing with FCS.

Ming appears to be commonly installed on Linux webhosts, even, shared hosting so it should not be difficult to create a flash chat with a drawboad withing PHP, but AV stuff ........thoughtful

WP1
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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Jamie Pratt -
Was the Flash file format always openly published or was it published after someone reverse engineered it?

The Flash remoting protocol that is one way that Flash can communicate with a server is a proprietary format but was reverse engineered so that support could be provided for Flash remoting to work with PHP and Java.

See :

http://www.actionscript.com/flashweek/00000443.html

I have bad news about Flash's audio and video capabilities. They are tied to the Flash Comms Server. You can capture audio from a mike in a Flash movie but can only send that to a Flash Comm Server Connection there is no way to send or store the captured audio or even to access the captured audio data unless you send it to the Flash Comm Server. The Flash Comm Server messaging format is another proprietary format from Macromedia and I don't think this one will be reverse engineered any time soon as I stated earlier. We can pray that it will be though or that Macromedia will see the error of their ways and allow free or more affordable licensing of the Flash Comm Server software.





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In reply to Jamie Pratt

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Oh dear, I didn't realise the audio/video was tied so much to the Flash Comm server ... that is bad news! sad

(The Flash format was opened in April 1998 in response to what I guess eventually became SVG. Ming 0.0.1a is from 2000)
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In reply to Jamie Pratt

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Tony Hursh -
I have bad news about Flash's audio and video capabilities. They are tied to the Flash Comms Server. You can capture audio from a mike in a Flash movie but can only send that to a Flash Comm Server Connection there is no way to send or store the captured audio or even to access the captured audio data unless you send it to the Flash Comm Server.

Yes, that's what I've gathered as well. Using it with another server would almost certainly require reverse-engineering Macromedia's proprietary (and undocumented) RTMP protocol. To be fair to Macromedia, I understand that parts of the FCS technology are licensed from other vendors, and they may not have the legal right to open it up.

While FCS seems to work very well indeed, I'm less keen on it that I was when I first started playing with it.

The search continues..... sad


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In reply to Tony Hursh

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Yes, I've been reading around further and I'm quite bummed out about this.

I'd more or less assumed someone somewhere was beavering away on some sort of equivalent backend that would handle the audio/video streaming. But this puts the nail in that idea (at least with Flash, anyway).

The search continues indeed ...
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In reply to Tony Hursh

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Mark Stevens -
Hi All,

Apologies for this shot in the dark, but what about Darwin Streaming Server? 
http://developer.apple.com/darwin/projects/streaming/

Binary Releases: Streaming Server 5.0.1
Just trying to help smile
M
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In reply to Mark Stevens

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Tony Hursh -
Hmm... haven't looked at that for a while. It seemed quite sluggish at the time, but maybe it's improved.

Also, unless I'm completely misremembering the DSS design (quite possible, it's been well over a year since I looked at it), it suffers from the same drawback as SHOUTCast, in that it's primarily intended for one-way broadcasting, not two-way conversations.

It's definitely worth another look, though, especially since it's open source.

Thanks for the reminder!



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In reply to Tony Hursh

Red 5- an alternative to Flash Comm Server

by Jamie Pratt -
Enterprising programmers have begun to work on an alternative to Flash Comm Server called 'Red 5' which will hopefully allow us to stream audio and video to and from the Flash Player.

Jamie
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In reply to Jamie Pratt

Re: Red 5- an alternative to Flash Comm Server

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Ooo keep an eye on that one!
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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Red 5- an alternative to Flash Comm Server

by Jamie Pratt -
I'll be keeping an eye on this.

It's great to see the interest that has recently sprung up in the Flash community to work on OS projects. A good starting point for those interested is http://osflash.org which seems to do be the focal point of a lot of the activity. The Flash activity module is on there.


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In reply to Jamie Pratt

Re: Red 5- an alternative to Flash Comm Server

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Glad reverse-engineering isn't impossible, my hope for open-source audio/video web-conferencing is restored!
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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Red 5- an alternative to Flash Comm Server

by Jamie Pratt -
A draft roadmap for Red5 has just been published here :

http://review.codegent.net/opensource/RED5_draft_roadmap.pdf

Quotes from the document :

0.8 Public Beta Release
~ April 2006
More stable version of 0.7 for production environment testing.
This release will have many more features and so the focus
should be on testing and bug reports.

1.0 Jedi Power, Public Release
Q2 2006
Its finally ready! So it doesnt have a shinny box, but it will come
with some marketing material designed to please your boss, and
best of all its free. How can anyone resist.

Long live RED5 - The Open Source Flash Server.
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In reply to Jamie Pratt

Re: Red 5- an alternative to Flash Comm Server

by Samuel Cochran -
I agree. I think Flash can potentially be a very powerful platform. Over 98% of internet users have it in their browsers. However it suffers from proprietary licensing and crummy development tools.

Open-source Flash will do wonders!

I remember seeing a complete XML-driver application environment written in Flash, but I can't remember it's name. I've even lost my bookmark for it. Dang.

I might go and check out these technologies myself when I get the chance. I've always wanted to build a multi-interfaced content managment system - HTML / Flash / Native app. I just started on working on one that has both HTML and AJAX interfaces which is proving to work very well. Using Flash would make things much simpler as it removes the cross-compatability problems. Humm... thoughtful
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In reply to Samuel Cochran

Re: Red 5- an alternative to Flash Comm Server

by Jamie Pratt -
I remember seeing a complete XML-driver application environment written in Flash, but I can't remember it's name. I've even lost my bookmark for it. Dang.

You could be thinking of Dengbig grin. It renders a subset of XHTML and SVG.
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In reply to Jamie Pratt

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Tony Hursh -
The "personal edition" (good for up to 50 simultaneous users or 1 Mb/s bandwidth) is $329 US for outright purchase if you are an educational institution, $499 if you don't qualify for education pricing. No annual fee, as far as I can tell. See:

http://macromedia.com/resources/education/sales/epl.html

The price is much higher if you need more users, and I think there may be an annual fee involved with that.



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In reply to Tony Hursh

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Yes, cool, this is the direction I want to see.  approve

Only i hope someone comes up with an quivalent open source backend eventually!
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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Joyce Smith -
Martin,this  might be a really 'dumb 'question, but can't we use  a simple 'voice' with e.g.SKYPE , while we are in Moodle forums/chat/anywhere in Moodle ?  with a 'student'or a group of students ? Do we really need (sorry Bryan) Elluminate ,or others ,Compu-Ed , etc ? They are all limited in the number of 'participants' that can be on line at one time . . So, tutorial groups are limited to what is it 5 in SKYPE ? Thats not a bad number for a tutorial group ! More than that 'talking' at once becomes awkword for a moderator anywyay !! (synchronously) !
Joyce
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In reply to Joyce Smith

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Chris Ainsworth -

You are right in one sense Joyce - you can use a a program like Skye for simple tutorial work.  If you are working with as you say small groups, and conducting turotials with 2-3 people, a facilitator and maybe a guest, then you can use Skype effectively.  For sole training providers,  then Skype is a viable and relaible solution provided each user is connected to a decent internet connection.  56K modem connections can be marginal.

Reality is that most organisations work on participant numbers of approximately 10 people and in many cases up to 20 and a few, larger numbers.  Compued does provide an affordable alternative in these circumstances in the Australian training arena.  The advantage I have personally found using Compued is the reliable voice quaility over 56K modems with voice clarity far superior to that of Skype, and the cost is very reasonable.  As a facilitator, I also have the option of integrating poer-point, text, html pages and an interactive whitebaord, which is extremely useful in turotials.  These are all a plus for me, click and the tools are there ready to use. For me, my choice integrates with Moodle seemlessly the way in which I facilitate my training sessions.   

Elluminate also has a place, particularly in the corporate arena and for larger audiences, just depends on how deep your pocket is.

As with all programs and applications, nothing is for free.......  There is a cost for everyone who uses the technology somewhere in the IT world. 

Horses for courses. 

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In reply to Joyce Smith

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by James Phillips -
I hope it's not too dumb because you just beat me to asking it!
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In reply to Joyce Smith

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
One can certainly run separate solutions alongside Moodle, no question, but they all have limitations, such as they:

  • cost money to run (Compued, Elluminate etc)
  • only work on certain platforms (Yahoo, MSN, Teamspeak, Eyeballchat etc)
  • are limited in the number of participants they support (Skype etc)

The main thing though, is that they are not at all integrated. I would like to see real integration so that: the user profiles are used; so that people in a voice conference can show up in a block within the web pages; so that no extra software beyond that which you normally find in a web browser is required.
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In reply to Joyce Smith

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Tony Hursh -
They are all limited in the number of 'participants' that can be on line at one time

That's exactly why Skype won't work for us. We need at least 25 participants online at once, and 50 would be better. We want to use this stuff for the presentation of final projects, and also for weekly lectures (not all our instructors do "live" lectures, but some prefer to work that way).

Right now our instructors broadcast their lectures using SHOUTCast audio, while the students ask questions via text chat (Moodle chat, IM, or TappedIn, depending on instructor preference). Of course that won't work for class presentations since SHOUTCast is strictly one-to-many.






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In reply to Tony Hursh

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Bob Boufford -

Tony,

We use Web4M (JDHTech, Inc) right now. Java-based so the server runs on any platform with Java 2 SRE and client with Java 2 1.4.x plugin. Great package for the price (4 digits instead of 6 digits), but once we start getting over 20-25 students it's starts straining also. It's primarily an office web conferencing system between small groups unlike Elluminate, Horizon Live and Breeze which can handle much larger groups.

Actually, from an effective delivery and learning standpoint, once you get over 10 participants, the best mode of delivery and interaction is with instructor-only audio and student questions/comments by text chat. Even in many presentations that I have attended on Elluminate, Horizon Live, Breeze and Placeware, once the group gets over 10-15 people, the presenters have gone into one-to-many audio with questions/comments by text chat. So you may need to "pay the price".

Cheers,

Bob

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In reply to Bob Boufford

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Tony Hursh -
Thanks, I hadn't seen Web4M before.

We don't really need a system that lets everybody talk at the same time, but do need the ability for anyone to talk. Taking turns would be fine.

The only way to handle that with SHOUTCast would be to hand out the SC server password to all the students, which we don't want to do. smile



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In reply to Tony Hursh

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Jamie Pratt -
Hi,

I'm interested in the future in looking at asterisk ( http://asterisk.org )- Moodle integration. I think asterisk is a great project that has a lot of potential. Asterisk is a Voice over IP (VoIP) server, it is often described as a VoIP private branch exchange (PBX) that runs on Linux but is much more than that. It is open source but seems to have found a lot of professional applications and is well supported and has many active developers involved.

Asterisk supports Voice over IP protocols so that you can connect to Asterisk using a desktop VoIP phone (which you just plug into a lan connection) or software on your computer or you can call into your asterisk server from a normal telephone. You can have calls from a normal phone through a gateway service or cards you plug into your Asterisk server that can connect your computer to a normal phone line/ ISDN / T1 / E1 lines from your local telephone exchange.

Asterisk can handle voice mail and conference calls and interactive voice menu systems and more. I think language teachers and others could come up with some really cool applications of this technology. I would like to see voice forums that could be accessed from a VoIP / normal telephone and have messages accessible from the web.

I'm hoping to get involved in developing stuff like this. But for the next few months I'll be working on Flash stuff I think.

Jamie
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In reply to Jamie Pratt

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
I've seen Asterix before but can't find much in it about large-scale conferencing ... it seems to be very targeted towards the sorts of the things you'd use a phone for.

I'd love to be shown otherwise!
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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Jamie Pratt -
I found the quote below on the Digium list archive for discussion of Asterisk. I think it is more a question of how many simultaneous VoIP connections you can handle at once and this depends on what protocol and compression you are using, some compression algorithms take more processing power than others.

I think use of Asterisk would not be limited to just using it as conference call server though but also as a voice mail system. It would be cool to integrate a voice mail server with a web application so that we could have hybrid telephone / web voice forums and other computer mediated communications apps with voice.


 

[Asterisk] meetme

Jeremy McNamara asterisk@marko.net
Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:44:18 -0500

Previous message: [Asterisk] meetme Next message: [Asterisk] meetme Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]  
Barry Porch wrote:

> Since we're on the meetme topic, I didn't get an answer to my question
> about the maximum practical number of conferees in meetme.  Anyone know?


I've had many confs with 23 users all dialing into an 8xx number, which
lands on a PRI I have.

Since this is all TDM it wasn't very hard on the machine, if you add in VoIP
you will eventually
run into processor limitations. If my memory serves me I had a 10 person SIP
conference with no trouble, but we were all running G.711...I couldn't find
anyone else that wanted to load my system down to find that magic number.


Jeremy McNamara
 
 

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In reply to Jamie Pratt

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Yes, I suppose audio forums do have attractions, but really, I don't think they'll ever be able to satisfactorily replace text.

Look at this very discussion for example. Scroll up and down and scan the contents with your eye and see how fast you can get the gist of it and zoom into something if interest.

Now imagine that instead of skipping over the text that way, you had to listen to 20 or 30 voice recordings with ums, ahs, funny accents, slow talkers, fast talkers, variable microphones, etc ... Not to mention a requirement to have speakers on your computer and no ability to search. I think it would slow down your interaction so much as to make it nearly useless ...
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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by James Phillips -
Martin,
I don't think people are looking at audio boards (such as gong etc.) as an alternative to text boards. But a board that combined audio and text with a straightforward interface would be an extremely useful tool in a field such as language study where exposure to 20 or 30 different accents would be an excellent thing to have around. Voice recording quality would obviously be a major issue though.
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In reply to James Phillips

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Tim VanSlyke -
I can see that I'm coming in a bit late to this conversation, but I would love to know more about what's going on in this area, if anything.
I'm responsible for curriculum development for a small community college language lab and we have been recently researching how we could create a "virtual language lab."

We would like to be able to offer the same functions of a traditional lab:
  • Students can listen to digitized adio content onlne
  • Students can record their voices to submit to their instructor for evaluation and feedback.
  • Instructors can give their students students assignments that require them to listen and/or record
And we would like to exapand on the traditional lab model by providing asynchronous and synchronous audio to students both on and off campus. We serve a fairly large region and this would allow us to provide these services to students in our outreach centers as well as create opportunities for distributed learning.

It seems to me that an LMS system like Moodle combined with audio features provided by FlashCom (or better yet an Open Source equivalent) would be a perfect fit for our needs.

Do any of you agree/disagee? Do you know of anyone who has tried this? Assuming that we can get the college to agree to install FlashComm and Moodle, how difficult would the programming be to get them "talking" to one another?
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In reply to Tim VanSlyke

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Jamie Pratt -
Assuming that we can get the college to agree to install FlashComm and Moodle, how difficult would the programming be to get them "talking" to one another?


I don't think this would be so tricky, but it depends what you mean by talking together.

For asynchronous comms : I would imagine that it would be desirable to integrate voice recording and playback into the Moodle forums, so that the students could press a button on the html editor to fire up a connection to Flash com server and record a voice message. Then a player would be automatically embedded in their forum post so that anyone viewing the forum could play back the message, just like the mp3 player works now.

For synchronous comms : It might be nice to have a module similar to the chat module but one that allows audio chat as well as text. Not sure if it would be possible to record the audio streams for playback later.

To playback audio to your students which will be recorded by a teacher it might be better to have the teachers use a sound app such as the free Audacity software that can record mp3s. The flashcom server would be useful for allowing realtime communication between students and voice recording by students.

I'd be interested in working on this if you are looking for someone to help with the coding. I have some experience of working with Flash and Moodle, I am the author of the Flash Module.

What is the progress on Gong anyone?

Jamie
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In reply to Jamie Pratt

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Tony Bailetti -
Has anybody started working on the integration between Moodle and Asterisk?  Does this make sense?
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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Tim Allen -

I remember previous tests with Teamspeak here at moodle.org.  Teamspeak is freeware for non-commercial use I think too...(though not open source). 

Does anyone have any comparisons in terms of features and quality? 

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In reply to Tim Allen

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Tony Hursh -
We looked at Teamspeak, too. The problem there is that there's no OS X port. sad

That's a real killer for us, since many of our instructors and a substantial portion of our students are Mac users.

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In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Tony Hursh -
That would be fantastic. What'd really be great is an application using the Speex codec and wxWindows for the UI.



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In reply to Tony Hursh

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Nelson Francisco -

My company developed a product, based on FCS, that can be integrated on any LCMS.

Is uses realtime audio and video, shared whiteboard (and screen with a virtual cam driver like camtasia and others), chat room. Also integrated with LCMS lybrary to show learning objects for use on the whiteboard.

One of the biggest problems with fcs is the audio codec (Nelly Moser proprietary codec). This mean that if you save your audio session, you can only play it trought FCS again. For video it uses Sorenson codec.

One of the major advantages, in my point of view, is the autoadaptative function that can detect and adapt to client bandwidth. We made very reasonable sessions with a 56Kbps dial-up clients.

There are some proxy and firewall issues but they can be resolved with client side coding.

Please find some pictures at http://www.livelearn.net/screen.html. The site is in portuguese so I hope pictures can help. If you have any more questions or want to try our system, please mail me to mail.nelson@sapo.pt 

BR
Nelson

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In reply to Tony Hursh

Re: Testers needed for audio conference

by Timothy Takemoto -
Old thread but is that chatroom software bundled with FCS, or open source? I am going to try and get a server.
Timothy
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