I am looking for developers opinion on this new feature on Moodle.
I am not after technical help, just a friendly chat and get other developers opinions.
I teach writing and I am curious about plagiarism detectors. I don't feel it is good or bad, just a bit unnecessary. When I create (or negotiate) projects for writing, I have students write about experiences, problems or issues in their lives. I also have them create portfolios of their pre-writing, peer-editing, first/second/third drafts, research notes, etc. It never occurs to the student or to me to copy something. 
Hi Don,
I believe the plagiarism detectors act as deterrents for those who may consider plagiarizing someone else's work or a writing assistant for others. It never occurred to me that the students would simply copy information until it did occur.
I believe the plagiarism detectors act as deterrents for those who may consider plagiarizing someone else's work or a writing assistant for others. It never occurred to me that the students would simply copy information until it did occur.
Hi La Gayle,
It certainly has occurred to me that students may copy information and pass it off for their own work, either in good faith or with the definite intention of cheating. I maintain, however, that a good teacher who knows his subject, knows his students (their strengths and their limits) and has the right amound of flair and professional skills will detect most - if not all - of attempts at plagiarism in his students' submitted work.
ATB
Joseph
Hi Joseph,
Excellent point. Knowing your students learning abilities and content does enable the skill of assessing student work. A good teacher should be able to recognize based upon previous student work if the work is authentic. When proofing my ten year old daughters' written work, I can immediately identify when she or my student (Biology,IPC,A&P) has directly copied information versus using their own words. \
In my daughters case, I require her to print out any information used from the site and attach documents to her submitted work. Although it is not required I feel she should be prepared to demonstrate where information was received including why she used certain data.
Unfortunately the ability versus time, number of students or other factors affect such skills for some educators including training,professionalism,ethics, caring,and burnout.
Excellent point. Knowing your students learning abilities and content does enable the skill of assessing student work. A good teacher should be able to recognize based upon previous student work if the work is authentic. When proofing my ten year old daughters' written work, I can immediately identify when she or my student (Biology,IPC,A&P) has directly copied information versus using their own words. \
In my daughters case, I require her to print out any information used from the site and attach documents to her submitted work. Although it is not required I feel she should be prepared to demonstrate where information was received including why she used certain data.
Unfortunately the ability versus time, number of students or other factors affect such skills for some educators including training,professionalism,ethics, caring,and burnout.
I agree with what everyone is saying, but in our case the teacher does not mark the work.
We have dedicated markers, who don't teach just mark.
We have dedicated markers, who don't teach just mark.
Hi Claire,
Thanks for bringing to our attention the (not so new) Block: Crot: a new block for plagiarism detection. Why not discuss it in the already existing forum discussion here?
I might give that block a try. However, like our friend Don, I tend to be rather skeptical about plagiarism detectors in general. In my opinion, the best detector is the good teacher.
Joseph
I don't get it. Crot pinpoints students who have copied work from other people.
How would that information not be useful to you?
How would that information not be useful to you?
Hi Glen,
I think what Joseph means is that if there is a big problem with plagiarism, then the teacher is setting inappropriate tasks and/or hasn't educated their students about the difference between quoting and plagiarising. See what he says near the end of this discussion : Re: Ability to disable Print Screen/ Copy/Paste and there have been many similar discussions on these forums.
Cheers,
Glenys
I think what Joseph means is that if there is a big problem with plagiarism, then the teacher is setting inappropriate tasks and/or hasn't educated their students about the difference between quoting and plagiarising. See what he says near the end of this discussion : Re: Ability to disable Print Screen/ Copy/Paste and there have been many similar discussions on these forums.
Cheers,
Glenys
Glenys wrote:
"the teacher is setting inappropriate tasks and/or hasn't educated their students about the difference between quoting and plagiarising"
OoooooooO - now there is a generalization..
Not at all - but someone has certainly dropped the ball.
Tasks are always easy for the student who knows what they want, what they are doing, but in any class there are students who do not. This means that those who do not know will always try it on. I would agree there is a strong element of laziness or ineptitude where this happens regularly, but if you talk to these students, they often believe vampires are real and Hogwarts exists somewhere, under another name.
The advent of the digital age has had a number of appalling outcomes as well, and plagiarism is just one of them. There are a number even more unsavoury. (Like the ready adoption of American spelling - for one...
...)
"the teacher is setting inappropriate tasks and/or hasn't educated their students about the difference between quoting and plagiarising"
OoooooooO - now there is a generalization..
Not at all - but someone has certainly dropped the ball. Tasks are always easy for the student who knows what they want, what they are doing, but in any class there are students who do not. This means that those who do not know will always try it on. I would agree there is a strong element of laziness or ineptitude where this happens regularly, but if you talk to these students, they often believe vampires are real and Hogwarts exists somewhere, under another name.
The advent of the digital age has had a number of appalling outcomes as well, and plagiarism is just one of them. There are a number even more unsavoury. (Like the ready adoption of American spelling - for one...
...)
Do you know of any evidence that plagiarism has increased due to the internet? How many people used to plagiarise by going to the library and copying out of obscure books that the lecturer probably had not read.
While the internet makes plagiarism easier, it also makes detection easier.
I have not seen any convincing research that analyses what, if anything has change. (I have not looked for such research, so it may well exist.)
But in my experience, whenever you dig into the history properly, there is really nothing now. For example, you may have seen this list of quotes: http://interacc.typepad.com/synthesis/2008/10/the-21st-century-imperative.html
And, that is very on-topic in a post about plagiarism. Does anyone know who first compiled that list? I have seen it used by several different speakers and writers on educational technology, and they have all used it without attribution
While the internet makes plagiarism easier, it also makes detection easier.
I have not seen any convincing research that analyses what, if anything has change. (I have not looked for such research, so it may well exist.)
But in my experience, whenever you dig into the history properly, there is really nothing now. For example, you may have seen this list of quotes: http://interacc.typepad.com/synthesis/2008/10/the-21st-century-imperative.html
And, that is very on-topic in a post about plagiarism. Does anyone know who first compiled that list? I have seen it used by several different speakers and writers on educational technology, and they have all used it without attribution
Of course there was plenty of cheating years ago.
But...in the old days, one had to copy by hand. It still took some effort to research the source you plagiarized. You had to read what you copied. There was a chance that some little bit of the information would get stuck in your head while it was being manually transfered from your eyes to your hands.
Compare that to google ==>read first sentence of the first website that looks something like topic ==>cut/paste/hand in paper.
But...in the old days, one had to copy by hand. It still took some effort to research the source you plagiarized. You had to read what you copied. There was a chance that some little bit of the information would get stuck in your head while it was being manually transfered from your eyes to your hands.
Compare that to google ==>read first sentence of the first website that looks something like topic ==>cut/paste/hand in paper.
Bottom line: If teachers use Turnitin or CROT, students should have unlimited use of the same tool.
Once we start using the word 'Plagiarism', we are in High Stakes Assessment territory. Even if the work itself is trivial, an accusation of plagiarism can result in failure or expulsion.
Plagiarism is a contested, culturally specific concept, interpreted differently even by members of the same school. Since a student's career can be derailed by a single machine test, it is unfair to restrict her opportunity to test her work against machine repeatedly prior to assessment.
________
NSW schools use the term 'Appropriate Academic Scholarship' which embraces other issues of fairness as well. Unfortunately, the assessment processes seem to be archaic, and could benefit from two general lines of improvement.
1. Measure the process. If you really want to know that a student can personally write (or research or change brake pads) you have to observe that _process_, not just the outcome.
2. Set 21st Century tasks. Outside of the schooling/certification process, it seems that most knowledge-work is collaborative. 'Authentic assessment' would look for competence in utilisation of teams and 'found material'.
Both of these approaches require detailed observation and record keeping to replace simple collection of work. Fortunately, software features like 'track changes' and 'revision history' do help. There is still a long way to go, in developing expertise in rapid assessment utilising those records. The main difficulty seems to be that the markers don't yet know what characterises best practice in collaborative scholarship. I'm particularly interested in that question, and I am frustrated that discussions of Plagiarism often fail to acknowledge the social character of knowledge and its production.
Russell
Once we start using the word 'Plagiarism', we are in High Stakes Assessment territory. Even if the work itself is trivial, an accusation of plagiarism can result in failure or expulsion.
Plagiarism is a contested, culturally specific concept, interpreted differently even by members of the same school. Since a student's career can be derailed by a single machine test, it is unfair to restrict her opportunity to test her work against machine repeatedly prior to assessment.
________
NSW schools use the term 'Appropriate Academic Scholarship' which embraces other issues of fairness as well. Unfortunately, the assessment processes seem to be archaic, and could benefit from two general lines of improvement.
1. Measure the process. If you really want to know that a student can personally write (or research or change brake pads) you have to observe that _process_, not just the outcome.
2. Set 21st Century tasks. Outside of the schooling/certification process, it seems that most knowledge-work is collaborative. 'Authentic assessment' would look for competence in utilisation of teams and 'found material'.
Both of these approaches require detailed observation and record keeping to replace simple collection of work. Fortunately, software features like 'track changes' and 'revision history' do help. There is still a long way to go, in developing expertise in rapid assessment utilising those records. The main difficulty seems to be that the markers don't yet know what characterises best practice in collaborative scholarship. I'm particularly interested in that question, and I am frustrated that discussions of Plagiarism often fail to acknowledge the social character of knowledge and its production.
Russell
I agree. The real issue is developing intellectual honesty. At the OU, we call it 'Good academic practice'. 'Appropriate Academic Scholarship' is another good way to put it. There is a blog post by me at http://tjhunt.blogspot.com/2009/10/open-universitys-approach-to-plagiarism.html
Something I have been thinking about recently, which is somewhat related to this:
When you go to see a film, or a play, particularly if it is something trashy like a James Bond or Star Trek film, or a Gilbert and Sullivan musical, there is the concept of 'Suspending your disbelief'. That is, you will enjoy it a lot more if you go along with whatever ridiculous premise the film/play/musical is based on, rather than sitting there thinking "that's impossible", or "how ridiculous", the whole time.
I wonder if it is worth acknowledging a similar concept when it comes to course design. The student will get the most out of the course if they enter into the sprit of things, and agree to participate fully in whatever artificial and contrived activities the teacher has devised to help them learn.
Of course, really great art normally does not require much suspension of disbelief. Similarly, really great courses will uses practice-based and peer learning, realistic examples, and authentic assessment. But sometimes that is just not feasible or appropriate for what is being taught, just like sometimes you want to watch StarTrek, not Citizen Kane.
Something I have been thinking about recently, which is somewhat related to this:
When you go to see a film, or a play, particularly if it is something trashy like a James Bond or Star Trek film, or a Gilbert and Sullivan musical, there is the concept of 'Suspending your disbelief'. That is, you will enjoy it a lot more if you go along with whatever ridiculous premise the film/play/musical is based on, rather than sitting there thinking "that's impossible", or "how ridiculous", the whole time.
I wonder if it is worth acknowledging a similar concept when it comes to course design. The student will get the most out of the course if they enter into the sprit of things, and agree to participate fully in whatever artificial and contrived activities the teacher has devised to help them learn.
Of course, really great art normally does not require much suspension of disbelief. Similarly, really great courses will uses practice-based and peer learning, realistic examples, and authentic assessment. But sometimes that is just not feasible or appropriate for what is being taught, just like sometimes you want to watch StarTrek, not Citizen Kane.
Good thoughts Tim and I like the metaphor. I sometimes use the metaphor of influence in the same way. We go about our business in life both influencing people and events, and being influenced by same. It may not be possible to learn if one is closed off from this interchange; certainly we see one-dimensional people who try. Thanks for sharing.
Hi moderators,
I've just rated Tim's latest post "Coolest thing ever" but that's not really what I wanted to express - sorry, I'm not the gushing sort. I would prefer just to be able to put "Useful" like on the Using Moodle forums (I'd also like to know how to have just a one item rating on my own forums).
But Tim, maybe you prefer to be rated "Coolest thing ever".
In which case, here are some smileys which express my opinion of your posts:
Cheers,
Glenys
I've just rated Tim's latest post "Coolest thing ever" but that's not really what I wanted to express - sorry, I'm not the gushing sort. I would prefer just to be able to put "Useful" like on the Using Moodle forums (I'd also like to know how to have just a one item rating on my own forums).
But Tim, maybe you prefer to be rated "Coolest thing ever".
In which case, here are some smileys which express my opinion of your posts:
Cheers,
Glenys
I have to agree with Tim. I noticed more plagiarism in the analog age (the 1970s) and I can even recall times I fooled my teachers with carefully melded works (later I learned to write).
In our school, which focuses writing a process writing approach with personal projects rather than general topics, it is hard for students to plagiarize their own reflections. Also we ask students to submit a folder for each essay with their notes, internet printouts, outlines, first, second and third drafts in a packet. That shows traceable path of how he or she built the essay.
Online plagiarism checkers would however be useful for checking within our site for past projects that students might be tempted to copy.
>>There are a number even more unsavoury. (Like the ready adoption of American spelling - for one...
...)
Hmm. One study revealed that by dropping the "u" in colour and the "me" in programme has saved saved thousands of tons of carbon in reduced paper waste and screen energy. Surely, mammoths would still be alive today had we adopted American spelling years ago. And just think of the global warming I am causing by adding on this last frivilous sentence.
In our school, which focuses writing a process writing approach with personal projects rather than general topics, it is hard for students to plagiarize their own reflections. Also we ask students to submit a folder for each essay with their notes, internet printouts, outlines, first, second and third drafts in a packet. That shows traceable path of how he or she built the essay.
Online plagiarism checkers would however be useful for checking within our site for past projects that students might be tempted to copy.
>>There are a number even more unsavoury. (Like the ready adoption of American spelling - for one...
...)Hmm. One study revealed that by dropping the "u" in colour and the "me" in programme has saved saved thousands of tons of carbon in reduced paper waste and screen energy. Surely, mammoths would still be alive today had we adopted American spelling years ago. And just think of the global warming I am causing by adding on this last frivilous sentence.
I used to teach writing. Now I'm an administrator of a writing program. We have just about 0% plagiarism for the reasons Don discusses above.
Where I am seeing plagiarism (not in my own program) is in writing assignments that are hangovers from the pre-Internet days:
The trick to preventing plagiarism is to up the ante from regurgitation and simple interpretation to apply some facts to analyze this particular situation. In the analysis, the pertinent facts will spill out, along with the interpretive skills.
In my program, we had a question about linguistics where we wanted students to explain some verb tenses and when their use was appropriate. Obviously, a quick search leads to exactly those items. Why should a student make up something that might be wrong when they can copy what is already "published" and be certain to be correct?
We changed the question and added a comment that we wanted to see what the *student* thought about things, not what someone else thought.
Where I am seeing plagiarism (not in my own program) is in writing assignments that are hangovers from the pre-Internet days:
Please regurgitate some facts and interpret them, pretending no one else has ever written on this subject before.
The trick to preventing plagiarism is to up the ante from regurgitation and simple interpretation to apply some facts to analyze this particular situation. In the analysis, the pertinent facts will spill out, along with the interpretive skills.
In my program, we had a question about linguistics where we wanted students to explain some verb tenses and when their use was appropriate. Obviously, a quick search leads to exactly those items. Why should a student make up something that might be wrong when they can copy what is already "published" and be certain to be correct?
We changed the question and added a comment that we wanted to see what the *student* thought about things, not what someone else thought.
Sorry I am coming to this a bit late but just wanted to add that plagiarism detection tools can be used as diagnostic tools, within the student's control to help them to see when they have failed to cite, or used (almost) someone else's words. However, this is a small part of the learning. Using sources as a process of synthesis where the author's creativity comes in the selection, critique, analysis and synthesis of ideas to form something 'new' is an apprenticeship of scholarship and takes time, patience, and a supportive community of scholars.
I'm relaxed about plagiarism and I'm relaxed about plagarism. We've had to go way beyond rote learning with our students to equip them for successful careers. Cheating doesn't come into it anymore. We help them learn to transfer their skills and knowledge. They show us how they apply to their situations the things they copy and paste from other sources. We assess their competence on this application and relevance they demonstrate. Regards, Paul Jacobson.