Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by baris yuce -
Number of replies: 20
hello everybody,

i use some types of hot potato practises in my moodle site, but i realize that students found a way to reach the answersşeytanca

1 - they display the source of page
2 - then they see the answers very easly as below.


I[0] = new Array();
I[0][0] = 100;
I[0][1] = '';
I[0][2] = '0';
I[0][3] = new Array();
I[0][3][0] = new Array('answer 1','',0,0,1);
I[0][3][1] = new Array('answer 2','',0,0,1);
I[0][3][2] = new Array('answer 3.','',0,0,1);
I[0][3][3] = new Array('answer 4.','',1,100,1); <-- here is the answer


i started to import hotpotato files to moodle's own test module in secure page, and it works now.

But i want to prevent the students to reach the answers in that easy way.

is there anyone solved this problem before?

thanks.
Baris
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In reply to baris yuce

Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Gordon Bateson -
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Hi Bruce,
for tests I recommend you Moodle'sQuiz module. It is not as interative or engaging as the Hot Potatoes quizzes, but it is very secure so I think it will satisfy your expectations better.

regards
Gordon
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In reply to Gordon Bateson

Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by baris yuce -
yes gordon you're right, its more secure to use moodle's own quiz module for typical multiple choice questions, but i want to use hot potato's cross word puzzle.


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In reply to baris yuce

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Glenys Hanson -
Hi Baris,

To say in a few more words what Gordon has already said: Hot Potatoes were invented by their authors as a means of creating learning exercises, not as tests. As far as I know, they never refer to them anything else than exercises - never as quizzes or tests.

A test presupposes a body of knowledge that has already been acquired. It is a way of verifying that knowledge. Online tests are inherently insecure unless they are conducted in extremely well organised environments and invigilated - for example, see the TOEFL regulations for becoming a test centre. Martin Holmes and Stewart Arneil have said a variant of this over and over on the Hot Potatoes Users Group

An exercise is a way of learning something: helping students to understand how to do something. Security is irrelevant.

Many teachers don't understand this difference and assume all "quizzes" must be tests.

First, you have to decide what you want to do, test or help learn, and then find the tool to help you do what you want.

Cheers,
Glenys
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In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Itamar Tzadok -
Test or help learn seems to me a problematic distinction if it means that you help learn in one way and test in another, because then you test something else than what was learned, and what helped learn did not prepare for the test. This is one of the aspects of the the much discussed but not practiced assessment alignment. smile
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In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Gordon Bateson -
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Hi Itamar,

> "Test" or "help learn" seems to me a problematic distinction
> if it means that you help learn in one way and test in another,
> because then you test something else than what was learned,
> and what helped learn did not prepare for the test

This sounds gloriously abstract. If I understand correctly then when I apply these grand notions to Baris's situation, you are promoting the idea that we should only use multiple choice questions to prepare for tests that use multiple choice questions, and only use crosswords to learn if that knowledge will be tested using crosswords. Is that what you are saying?

The difficulty for me is that what you say doesn't quite ring true with my experience of how I learn, or how I prepare for tests, or my understanding of how my students learn.

Probably I misunderstood your intended meaning. Could you help me understand?

thanks
Gordon
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In reply to Gordon Bateson

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Itamar Tzadok -
Indeed that's what I meant but I would reverse the order. If I test by crosswords I should offer crosswords for practice. The same goes for any question type I use for assessment. The reason is that the point of learning, as I see it, is in acquiring certain skills that could be applied in a certain problem domain. This is particularly important where learning is officially assessed because there we need to ensure fair prospects of success and fair assessment.

Every question type constitutes a problem-solving domain that is slightly to significantly different from the domain of another type. The difference lies mainly in the required skills for engaging with the problem. So, if I want to measure the mastery of skills in a certain domain I should allow students the opportunity to develop these skills by practicing on problems in that domain. If they practice on one domain and tested on another the assessment may be distorted.

You may propose that it is also important to learn to apply skills acquired in one domain to problems in another. Granted. But that's a higher skill which in itself could or should be learned and when tested special attention should be paid to what learning is measured and how.

I do not try to understand how my students learn. My concern is only to allow them to succeed. And so I start from what they are expected to demonstrate in the exam and I build everything in the course such that it will serve the purpose of the exam in the most direct way. Extras are available but kept aside so as not to distract those who already find the main course too challenging.

I hope that's a bit clearer. smile
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In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Glenys Hanson -
Hi Itamar,

Yes, that's very clear: you see your job as helping students pass an exam. I'm very lucky that most of the time I don't have to do that. I'm an English teacher and sometimes I've had to prepare students for tests like the TOEIC or the TOEFL but I don't enjoy it and neither do the students. When I do, I do what you do and have them spend their time mostly practicing the question types they'll meet in the tests. I don't like doing it because learning to tick boxes in an MCQ it doesn't seem to me to be an efficient way of learning to actually speak the language.

I'm lucky because most of the time I'm teaching adults who need to speak English professionally, and that's what I get them to do in class: speak. Out of class I suggest exercises that are focussed mainly on two objectives:
  • understanding the spoken language,
  • understanding how the language functions.
As in class, I notice the difficulties students have and try to make exercises that make them understand their mistakes. Face to face in class, I have a much wider ranger of techniques I can use to do this than I do when I make online exercises, but the way I go about it is the same: if the student has made a mistake "x" I ask myself what I can do to make them realise why it can't be said like that in English. Whether I chose an MCQ or a Crossword, for example, depends on which, with the (limited) pedagogical imagination and know-how I possess, will be most efficient in achieving that objective.

Learning to understand how people learn has been and still is the main focus of my professional life.

And I love pedagogical discussions - not enough of them to my mind on these Moodle forums, so thanks Baris for sparking one off.

Cheers,
Glenys

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In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Itamar Tzadok -
Apparently not quite clear yet. You see Glenys, I see my fun as helping students pass an exam they have (chosen) to take. As my students point out, I don't get paid enough for what I do, so it can't be considered a job. I enjoy it and at least some of my students enjoy it too. My challenge and source of enjoyment is to construct activities for practice and assessment which my students will find challenging and a source of enjoyment. MCQ hardly fall in this category.

All the rest is not entirely related to what I said in my previous post and is not necessarily contrary to what I think and do. I can only add that I haven't yet finished understanding how I learn and that is still the main focus of my professional life.

Itamar smile
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In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Glenys Hanson -
Hello again Itamar,

I see our ideas are much closer than I thought initially. big grin

In fact, I think MCQs can be challenging and a source of enjoyment - though not the way they're used in the tests I referred to. By the way, what subject do you teach? Your profile only tells me you do it in Canada.

I haven't finished understanding how I learn either, and observing myself, I find, is a good way of understanding how human beings learn in general. Learning takes place inside people and I'm the only person I have access to from the inside. I hypothesize that other people function in the same way and propose challenges to students based on these hypotheses. If students don't respond the way I expect, I modify the challenge.

Cheers,
Glenys


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In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Itamar Tzadok -
I'm currently in a philosophy department so the subjects are drawn from this discipline with a recent special focus on logic and critical reasoning. I also try to learn Latin and improve my French but I'm still considering what would be the best way to Moodle for this purpose and am playing with different ideas for interactive activities. I'll probably give it some more time in the summer. smile
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In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Glenys Hanson -
Hi Itamar,

I'm falling off my chair with laughter at myself for my totally false assumptions about you based on your post of 7 April 2010, 04:26 AM. I imagined you drilling your students in a mechanical way about some dry as dust, mechanical subject (no, I don't mean mechanics). I should have known better because my impression of you up until then had been extremely positive. Please accept my apologies.

I would love to see your exercises - is that possible?

If you're interested in improving your French you might like to participate in this course:
La pédagogie qui sous-tend la création des exercices interactifs en ligne It's already been running for 10 days but it's not too late to "prendre le train en marche".

Cheers,
Glenys

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In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Itamar Tzadok -
Introductory logic is quite mechanical but whether it is dry as dust or poisonous as iocane powder or even a bit superfluous really, is sometimes just a matter of tools. smile
Attachment princessbride.png
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In reply to Itamar Tzadok

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Glenys Hanson -
Hi Itamar,

OK, I've "seen" one of your exercises and, as I'm sure you intended, I'm not satisfied. Now, I want to play with one (preferably several). "Give her an inch and she'll take a yard."

Also, thanks for enlarging my culture with "iocane powder" - I'd never heard of it before. Hope to see the film some day.

Cheers,
Glenys
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In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Itamar Tzadok -
The live exercises are currently only on the university server and that server is not open to the world. I'm setting up a Moodle server for samples, demos or raw ideas to play with. Should be ready sometime in the summer. I'll let you know when and where when it is there. smile
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In reply to Glenys Hanson

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Gordon Bateson -
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Hi Baris,
my apologies for addressing you as "Bruce" in my earlier message.
regards
Gordon
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In reply to Gordon Bateson

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Marcus Green -
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Baris said

"I do not try to understand how my students learn"

The fact that you have investigated how they might find the correct answers by looking the source indicates you are interested in the learning process (or possibly ways to avoid the learning process?). An interest in how and why they learn can be an excellent way to ensure the learning occurs.

I am a huge fan of the Hotpotatoes JClose quizzes and I have always assumed though never investigated the idea that the students could find the answers by taking a look at the source. But that would miss the point because the interactive hint features means a big percentage of my students "play a game against themselves" by trying to get 100% without clicking the hint button. So the Moodle quiz would give me more "security", but the JCloze gives more motivation, win win in my view.


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In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by steve lencina -

Hello,

I love Hot potatoes too.  And I understand that students can read the source code.

But what you can do is use an HTML ENCRYPT program and your worrys are over.

Note, your hlml files will be a bit bigger.

I haven´t tried this webpage, but you may want to give it a try: http://www.iwebtool.com/html_encrypter

Cheers,

steve

ps. I don´t know if it will work with Quizport

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In reply to steve lencina

Re: Ynt: Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Gordon Bateson -
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hi Steve,
I doubt either the HotPot module or the QuizPort module could cope with encrypted html files, because both modules need to be able to read the source file in and do a lot of search-and-replace actions in order to insert media players and adjust the javascript so that results get sent back to Moodle and so forth.

So "your worrys are over" if you are using the encrypted html files outside of Moodle, but even so I posit that an ingenious student would be able to work out an unencrypter, and then you would be back to square one.

regards
Gordon
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In reply to baris yuce

Re: Hot potato fails!! students can reach the answers!!

by Joseph Rézeau -
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Hi baris,

You should consider yourself lucky to have so bright students that they can see the answers "easily" by following the course of action you describe.wink None of my own (university) students would be able to do that. Maybe yours are doing computer studies? If so, why not encourage them to come up with programing solutions to the problem? That would be an interesting challenge.

Joseph

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