The current video battle is much more complicated than the OOXML-war!
What I don't understand is, rather than telling Matt not to implement Flash, why not the other party implement a HTML5 competitor?
Re: Developer announcement: Flash vs. HTML5 - Please read this
by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
Number of replies: 12
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera
Re: Developer announcement: Flash vs. HTML5 - Please read this
by Pablo Angulo -
> The current video battle is much more complicated than the OOXML-war!
I agree, there are many parties involved.
> What I don't understand is, rather than telling Matt not to implement Flash, why not the other party implement a HTML5 competitor?
Nicolas and Stuart have come with practical solutions that do not force a solution onto user.
I agree, there are many parties involved.
> What I don't understand is, rather than telling Matt not to implement Flash, why not the other party implement a HTML5 competitor?
Nicolas and Stuart have come with practical solutions that do not force a solution onto user.
In reply to Pablo Angulo
Re: Developer announcement: Flash vs. HTML5 - Please read this
by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
>> The current video battle is much more complicated than the OOXML-war!
> I agree, there are many parties involved.
Yes, that was one of the main reasons. It was MS against the free world. ECMA, various ISO commities ware just working for them, I have first hand experience in SNV, the Swiss branch. Money rules
>> What I don't understand is, rather than telling Matt not to implement Flash, why not the other party implement a HTML5 competitor?
> Nicolas and Stuart have come with practical solutions that do not force a solution onto user.
Glad that, this is sorted out. Let there be a Flash-version and a HTML5-version and leave the choice to the learned users.
> I agree, there are many parties involved.
Yes, that was one of the main reasons. It was MS against the free world. ECMA, various ISO commities ware just working for them, I have first hand experience in SNV, the Swiss branch. Money rules
>> What I don't understand is, rather than telling Matt not to implement Flash, why not the other party implement a HTML5 competitor?
> Nicolas and Stuart have come with practical solutions that do not force a solution onto user.
Glad that, this is sorted out. Let there be a Flash-version and a HTML5-version and leave the choice to the learned users.
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera
Re: Developer announcement: Flash vs. HTML5 - Please read this
by Patrick Pollet -
>Let there be a Flash-version and a HTML5-version and leave the choice to the learned users.
+1 especially after reading the free excerpt of the latest Forrester report
http://www.forrester.com/rb/Research/does_html_5_herald_end_of_ria/q/id/56768/t/2
Will HTML 5 make rich Internet application (RIA) technologies such as Adobe Flash/Flex and Microsoft Silverlight obsolete? For at least the next five years, the answer is a definite "no"; inconsistent implementations of the draft HTML 5 specification and immature tooling make building HTML 5 apps that work consistently across browsers and operating systems a real challenge. Furthermore, this "either/or" scenario is driven only by vendor politics, not by developer realities. Ultimately, HTML 5 and RIA platforms will be complementary technologies, and enterprise development shops will need to invest in both approaches to deliver expressive applications that combine reach and richness.
Cheers.
+1 especially after reading the free excerpt of the latest Forrester report
http://www.forrester.com/rb/Research/does_html_5_herald_end_of_ria/q/id/56768/t/2
Will HTML 5 make rich Internet application (RIA) technologies such as Adobe Flash/Flex and Microsoft Silverlight obsolete? For at least the next five years, the answer is a definite "no"; inconsistent implementations of the draft HTML 5 specification and immature tooling make building HTML 5 apps that work consistently across browsers and operating systems a real challenge. Furthermore, this "either/or" scenario is driven only by vendor politics, not by developer realities. Ultimately, HTML 5 and RIA platforms will be complementary technologies, and enterprise development shops will need to invest in both approaches to deliver expressive applications that combine reach and richness.
Cheers.
In reply to Patrick Pollet
Re: Developer announcement: Flash vs. HTML5 - Please read this
by Matt Bury -
I find it interesting that some people here feel so strongly about the topic that they'll tell/advise developers to start/stop using a particular platform. Personally, I'm quite happy to use both, whichever is the best tool for the job at the time.
At the moment and for the last decade or so, everyone's been falling over themselves to create interactive learning applications in Flash. Admittedly, many authorware programs publish Flash apps. that are big and slow and don't do anything that you can't do with HTML and Javascript but is that a problem with Flash or the authorware?
It's relatively quick and easy to develop very subtle and intricate interactions between users and apps. that add greatly to their learning experiences. I've yet to see anything approaching this level of interactivity in any other web based technologies that don't involve plugins of one kind or another. The only stuff I've seen that even approaches it are slow, heavy Javascript apps. such as Google Maps, which runs much more quickly and smoothly in Flash and allows far more flexibility and possibilities by the way, and Google Wave which slows down even my fairly powerful PC.
If we want ALL the bells and whistles, I'm afraid plugins, which are getting better and more efficient all the time, are here to stay for the foreseeable future.
At the moment and for the last decade or so, everyone's been falling over themselves to create interactive learning applications in Flash. Admittedly, many authorware programs publish Flash apps. that are big and slow and don't do anything that you can't do with HTML and Javascript but is that a problem with Flash or the authorware?
It's relatively quick and easy to develop very subtle and intricate interactions between users and apps. that add greatly to their learning experiences. I've yet to see anything approaching this level of interactivity in any other web based technologies that don't involve plugins of one kind or another. The only stuff I've seen that even approaches it are slow, heavy Javascript apps. such as Google Maps, which runs much more quickly and smoothly in Flash and allows far more flexibility and possibilities by the way, and Google Wave which slows down even my fairly powerful PC.
If we want ALL the bells and whistles, I'm afraid plugins, which are getting better and more efficient all the time, are here to stay for the foreseeable future.
Is it that we feel strongly, or just that we like a good religious war? Emacs/vim flamewar, anyone 
In reply to Tim Hunt
Re: Developer announcement: Flash vs. HTML5 - Please read this
by Visvanath Ratnaweera -
What Emacs 
?
Seriously, what are we talking about?
a) Which is "better" Flash or HTML5?
b) Which is technically superior (features/ressources)?
c) Which politically better (propriotory, vendor lock-in, open, free, sustainable, ...)?
d) does Moodle want give its users the choice (even to be non-free if they wish)?
?Seriously, what are we talking about?
a) Which is "better" Flash or HTML5?
b) Which is technically superior (features/ressources)?
c) Which politically better (propriotory, vendor lock-in, open, free, sustainable, ...)?
d) does Moodle want give its users the choice (even to be non-free if they wish)?
In reply to Visvanath Ratnaweera
Re: Developer announcement: Flash vs. HTML5 - Please read this
by Mark Johnson -
I think d) is closest to what we're talking about. But I think the conversation was started more to stop people getting ahead of themselves thinking that we're going to need to hurry and switch Moodle to HTML5 video just because it's "more" free.
In reply to Matt Bury
Re: Developer announcement: Flash vs. HTML5 - Please read this
by sam marshall -
I think many of us don't want the bells and whistles! Probably most people have antipathy to Flash because it's generally used to add 'flashiness' (not surprisingly)... and subtract 'usability', 'accessibility', and 'user control'.
For example, most of us are familiar with the Flash application which should have been a normal web page, complete with no bookmark support, no back button support, tiny text that doesn't respond to the normal resize options, and horrible scrollbars that don't work properly.
Add to that the fact that most people are familiar with Flash's audio/visual capabilities mainly through adverts...
Personally, I don't get that worked up about Flash any more, but that's probably partly because I have the FlashBlock plugin installed! So I only see Flash when I want to - I don't get it forced on me. As a result, I only get annoyed when there is content I want which is only available in Flash.
Right now on a practical level Flash is still the #1 most reliable single way to play video. And I don't like horrible JavaScript hacks (if you have an iPhone then we'll use HTML5, or if you have Safari, but not if you have Firefox, where it doesn't work because Apple won't support the open-source format so instead we'll generate an alternative video format, or in Internet Explorer, there we'll use Flash again, or if there's an R in the month, then we'll install an entirely new javascript framework to download a java applet which might - just MIGHT - actually play the damn video).
So, while I certainly want html5 video tag to actually work with a single video & audio format that is high quality and is supported in all common browsers (preferably also an open = patent-free format that can be generated using free tools), wishes aren't ponies, and right now, meh, we'll have to keep using Flash.
--sam
For example, most of us are familiar with the Flash application which should have been a normal web page, complete with no bookmark support, no back button support, tiny text that doesn't respond to the normal resize options, and horrible scrollbars that don't work properly.
Add to that the fact that most people are familiar with Flash's audio/visual capabilities mainly through adverts...
Personally, I don't get that worked up about Flash any more, but that's probably partly because I have the FlashBlock plugin installed! So I only see Flash when I want to - I don't get it forced on me. As a result, I only get annoyed when there is content I want which is only available in Flash.
Right now on a practical level Flash is still the #1 most reliable single way to play video. And I don't like horrible JavaScript hacks (if you have an iPhone then we'll use HTML5, or if you have Safari, but not if you have Firefox, where it doesn't work because Apple won't support the open-source format so instead we'll generate an alternative video format, or in Internet Explorer, there we'll use Flash again, or if there's an R in the month, then we'll install an entirely new javascript framework to download a java applet which might - just MIGHT - actually play the damn video).
So, while I certainly want html5 video tag to actually work with a single video & audio format that is high quality and is supported in all common browsers (preferably also an open = patent-free format that can be generated using free tools), wishes aren't ponies, and right now, meh, we'll have to keep using Flash.
--sam
In reply to sam marshall
Re: Developer announcement: Flash vs. HTML5 - Please read this
by Matt Bury -
Hi sam,
I'm with you on this. I think browser plugins that block Flash are wonderful too! I'd rather blame the sponsored content business model and advertisers than the medium for the annoying adverts though, the same deal with TV. If there wasn't Flash, it'd be some other medium and sometimes is (That's why I also like the NoScript Javascript blocker plugin).
I also understand the dismay at Flash websites that really should be HTML. I'm with everyone on that too. I too, think that there is a lot of misuse of Flash and developers often do "clever" stuff just because they can. I don't think this is limited to Flash though.
Regarding accessibility, like HTML, Flash supports accessibility but it does require a little extra work by developers so I can see how a lot of sites and apps are a nightmare for users with disabilities.
Regarding browser controls and the back button, Flash also supports this (called "deep linking") but again, it requires some extra work on the part of developers.
I guess in the race to meet deadlines at the lowest possible cost, developers won't include essential features that they consider as superfluous or optional. Perhaps the accessibility laws in various countries need to be tightened for the very significant sections of our societies who stand to benefit most from web access.
I'm with you on this. I think browser plugins that block Flash are wonderful too! I'd rather blame the sponsored content business model and advertisers than the medium for the annoying adverts though, the same deal with TV. If there wasn't Flash, it'd be some other medium and sometimes is (That's why I also like the NoScript Javascript blocker plugin).
I also understand the dismay at Flash websites that really should be HTML. I'm with everyone on that too. I too, think that there is a lot of misuse of Flash and developers often do "clever" stuff just because they can. I don't think this is limited to Flash though.
Regarding accessibility, like HTML, Flash supports accessibility but it does require a little extra work by developers so I can see how a lot of sites and apps are a nightmare for users with disabilities.
Regarding browser controls and the back button, Flash also supports this (called "deep linking") but again, it requires some extra work on the part of developers.
I guess in the race to meet deadlines at the lowest possible cost, developers won't include essential features that they consider as superfluous or optional. Perhaps the accessibility laws in various countries need to be tightened for the very significant sections of our societies who stand to benefit most from web access.
In reply to sam marshall
Re: Developer announcement: Flash vs. HTML5 - Please read this
by Matt Bury -
BTW, those bells and whistles I mentioned. Many people do want them. To demonstrate what I mean, check out the demos of the Media Player activity module I've been developing: http://matbury.com/moodle/course/view.php?id=9#section-9
This and its predecessor, the FLV Player, have been very popular. I've done searches on Google for the module help pages and they're installed on a wide range of university, college, school and business Moodle sites. It's a one-stop solution for the majority of course content developers' needs for using multimedia as a learning resource and it's relatively easy for non-technical staff to deploy some very complex features.
If IE, Safari, FF, et al agreed on a web standard, and we assume that content developers had no problem transcoding video files into the proscribed CODEC and container without serious file degradation and leaving "artefacts" in the streams, how easy do you think it would be to implement similar features as this (see the demos) in HTML5?
This and its predecessor, the FLV Player, have been very popular. I've done searches on Google for the module help pages and they're installed on a wide range of university, college, school and business Moodle sites. It's a one-stop solution for the majority of course content developers' needs for using multimedia as a learning resource and it's relatively easy for non-technical staff to deploy some very complex features.
If IE, Safari, FF, et al agreed on a web standard, and we assume that content developers had no problem transcoding video files into the proscribed CODEC and container without serious file degradation and leaving "artefacts" in the streams, how easy do you think it would be to implement similar features as this (see the demos) in HTML5?
Here's some more on accessibility in Flash from none other than Web AIM. The author claims that in many ways, Flash content can be made more accessible than HTML: http://www.webaim.org/techniques/flash/
Flash also supports multi-touch so it doesn't take a great leap of the imagination to see how this can help with accessibility, e.g. scalable graphics for menu buttons for the visually impaired, touch for assistance, less of a reliance on tabbing, etc. : http://theflashblog.com/?p=1975
Flash also supports multi-touch so it doesn't take a great leap of the imagination to see how this can help with accessibility, e.g. scalable graphics for menu buttons for the visually impaired, touch for assistance, less of a reliance on tabbing, etc. : http://theflashblog.com/?p=1975
In reply to Matt Bury
Re: Developer announcement: Flash vs. HTML5 - Please read this
by Penny Leach -
Just for interest (I am dreadfully behind on reading Moodle forum emails, woe), one of our guys here at Liip recently did some **really amazing** work on making a complicated Flash game completely accessible and achieved the highest rating possible (AA+) from the Swiss company "Access 4 All" who audit sites for accessibility (http://access4all.ch/blog/?p=1333 (German))
You can read more about what he did on our blog here:
http://blog.liip.ch/archive/2010/06/21/the-quest-for-accessible-flash-part1.html
and here:
http://blog.liip.ch/archive/2010/06/21/the-quest-for-accessible-flash-part2.html
I know this is a gratuitous plug, but I was totally impressed with it, and it definitely proves that Flash *can* be accessible.
You can read more about what he did on our blog here:
http://blog.liip.ch/archive/2010/06/21/the-quest-for-accessible-flash-part1.html
and here:
http://blog.liip.ch/archive/2010/06/21/the-quest-for-accessible-flash-part2.html
I know this is a gratuitous plug, but I was totally impressed with it, and it definitely proves that Flash *can* be accessible.