Flash Tests Writing to Moodle Tables

Flash Tests Writing to Moodle Tables

by Peter Ward -
Number of replies: 35

We have a number of flash tests where all of the question and answer text, objective text and graphics are within the flash movie. We track variables throughout the test and provide test takers with feedback at the end of the test, all within flash.

We would like to place our flash tests inside moodle and write some of these variables into a table within moodle. The table would store records of every test sat, questions selected, question sequence, answers given, objectives failed to achieve, time taken, date sat, and score.

Has anyone in the community done anything like this from which we can learn, alternatively can you help us achieve our aim.

Any guidance, thoughts, suggestions welcomed.

Cheers

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In reply to Peter Ward

Re: Flash Tests Writing to Moodle Tables

by Don Hinkelman -
Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers
Peter,
This isn't Flash, but take a look at the HotPotatoes forums. That is an example of where a non-Moodle set of quizzes was integrated into Moodle's database. Tom Robb will give you specific info on how he programmed it.
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In reply to Peter Ward

Re: Flash Tests Writing to Moodle Tables

by Luis Lebron -

You can create a php script that is called by a LoadVars command in Flash and stores the data in the Moodle database. That is how we normally transfer data from Flash to a database in our projects.

Luis

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In reply to Peter Ward

Re: Flash Tests Writing to Moodle Tables

by Richard Treves -
Hi Peter,

I haven't done this but would like to see it done, I currently have flash quizzes running in moodle but with no attempt to get them to talk to tables.  I can't help with php or mysql but I can do flash and actionscipt, if it would help to work on this together then I could give it some time.  Let me know your thoughts

cheers

Richard
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In reply to Peter Ward

Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Josep M. Fontana -
A while ago I posted a message related to the possibility of being able to integrate Flash with Moodle in such a way that it could become possible to create Flash quizzes or any type of Flash applets (with Flash, the sky is the limit, really) which could in turn export results to the Moodle data base and hence do whatever we can now do now with the results of quizzes: namely export grades, but not limited to this. You can find the thread in:
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=10094

Even though I'm still working on the problem, I have found out a few things that can be useful to achieve this goal and I would like to share them. Besides, I have seen a few postings (like the one I'm responding to now) related to this issue and I have also received private messages inquiring about the status of this enterprise which have prompted me to send this message. I'm sorry if the same message is posted in various forums, but I cannot think of any other way to reach the people I want to reach.

OK, here is what has changed since the last time I posted a message concerning this issue. It is a rather long message, but please bear with me if you are interested in making it possible to integrate Flash with Moodle.

My first problem at the moment is that I can't find anybody that can help
me with the Moodle side of things. For my project, I am working with some good professionals that are building the type of Flash applications I need but they are totally at a loss when it comes to make them interact with Moodle since they don't know anything about Moodle and my knowledge of Moodle is limited to the user/administrator perspective.

So before I go on, this is an open call for any developer or Moodle partner who wants to work with me in this project. I know everybody is busy with their own priorities and for this reason I am prepared to pay decently for your time an effort. My only conditions are a) that the people who take the job are knowleadgeable enough about the Moodle environment and have the required competency to do a decent job, and b) that they don't ask for an arm and a leg to do this. I do have some money that actually I need to spend before the end of december. However, there are two considerations: first, it is not a huge amount of money and second, whatever we build I will make available for the whole Moodle community, so everybody can benefit from it, including, of course, the people who put their work and they are paid for it. This is also a call to other people who want to contribute some money to this goal. I imagine that if we join efforts we can make it better and faster.

If the main Moodlers think it appropriate, I would like to include this as a module or as a part of an existing module (the quiz module seems the most appropriate but it doesn't have to be restricted to it). If the main problem related to being able to "connect" the Flash applet with the Moodle data base is solved, it should be relatively easy to create different forms (similar to the forms one currently has to create quizzes) adapted to the different types of Flash applets one is able to build. If we add to this that Flash MX can work with the so called 'components', one can imagine the enormous flexibility users would have to work with the inventory of created applets (I would also hope that the Open Source spirit Moodle is built upon would favor the free exchange of these applets as well) to customize them, adapt them and extend them to fit their specific needs.

OK, after this SOS call, let me tell you what I have so far. The first thing
I did was to contact Martin at Moodle.com to ask him if he could take on the job. He was too busy with other projects at the moment to be able to help me, but he did offer some guidance about where one should start. What he told me was that, as long as as we could find some way for a Flash applet to manipulate hidden form fields on the same web page where it is embedded, then it should be possible to do what we want (if he is reading this, he can correct me if I misinterpreted him). He added that "Moodle does now have a modular system for new question types so it shouldn't be too hard to do this". So, basically, if Flash can change the values of hidden fields in a form (of the type <input type="hidden" name="secretfield" value="secretword">)
as JavaScript can do, then in principle we would be all set.

Now, it turns out that things are not that easy. Talking to a friend who has worked on similar issues outside Moodle, he told me the following:

A Flash applet can extract information from the hidden fields on the HTML page where it is embedded. That's not a problem. But for the whole scheme to work, we need the intervention of JavaScript. JavaScript is needed to feed those hidden fields dynamically since Flash apparently cannot do that. It can only load the information from those fields, but it cannot feed them. But this scheme presents a serious problem. At least it presented it for my friend in a project in which he was involved. The problem is that it seems to work only with Internet Explorer. Mozilla couldn't work with it. I don't know about you, but I certainly don't want the users of our Moodle to be forced to use Internet Explorer. Maybe things have changed with the latest versions of Thunderbird and Firefox, but I don't know.

But my friend also pointed out that the problem is not only the limitation to work with one browser. There is an added problem with this way of doing things that is related to efficiency. Flash is much more efficient and fast if it can get data directly to and from the data base. In fact it works even better if it can get the data from an XML server since otherwise we need an additional PHP or Perl script to act as a bridge (which is pretty much the standard way of doing things).

Even though my friend is not familiar with Moodle, he assumes that due to its internal architecture it must be easier to leverage the standard approach of getting the data from the hidden fields in the HTML page. However, this would certainly not be the most efficient way of working with Flash. And, furthermore, he suggests that we should try to build some kind of bridge between the Moodle data base and Flash so that the latter could work with any type of quiz or exercise. He thinks this should not be too difficult. He has done similar things in other platforms and they worked perfectly. Unfortunately this friend, besides not being familiar with Moodle, works full time and cannot take this job.

So this is where I'm at. If anyone thinks that they can join me from here, please answer me in any of the forums where I have posted this message or contact me directly. Even if they are not interested in taking this job, if some Moodle guru reads this message and sees a problem with what I'm saying or has any helpful suggestion as to what direction to take, I will HUGELY appreciate it.

Josep M.
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In reply to Josep M. Fontana

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by elearning edu -
Hi Joseph,
I have gone through your mail.  I am interested to participate in your project.  I will get back to you soon with some details on the approach to integrate flash with moodle.
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In reply to Josep M. Fontana

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Bernard Boucher -
Hi Joseph,
I hope I understand clearly your problem.

Sometimes ago I tested the integration of some flash with the lesson and quiz modules in that too long post.

The way I used was using the GIFT import format to create questions/lessons.
At that time moodle/file.php was slightly modified to pass correctly the parameters.

I see 4 advantages of doing it that way:

1 - The flash object don't have to access moodle database directly. All these data manipulations are handled by the quiz or the lesson modules.

2 - The answers of the questions are not hidden or encrypted in the question. They are in the database like any other questions.

3 - It is easy with a simple text file, or even better with a macro, to create a lot of questions and to import these in a quiz or a lesson after.

4 - To do it that way, you will not have to be familiar with the internal architecture of Moodle, and you will have nothing to adapt if that architecture is changed.


I hope it may be usefull,

Bye,

Bernard


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In reply to Josep M. Fontana

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Timothy Takemoto -
Dear Joseph

I really hope you find someone.

I am still trying to get moodle accepted at my institution but it seems to me now that the people I am working with do not want to use it. At first it was pointed out that moodle does not have scorm compliance. But then it turned out that the competition does not have SCORM compliance either. More recently however, it has been pointed out that there is a problem with quizes. It is easy to save the source on the results page and send it to ones friends. All my attempts at copy protection will not get around this. It is quite likely (looking at the time some students take to get full marks) that my quizes are  being made obslete faster than I can create them. Since HTML always exists in the browser's cache at the least, there is little one can do to get around this. The competitor system uses java so it does not have the same drawback.

It would be really great if the moodle quiz used flash since I think that it would be that there could be greatly improved security. I really hope that you find a moodle guru therefore. The obvious recommendation would be Henrik Kaipe, since he is working on the quiz I believe.

I will ask around for some money.

Tim
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In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Michael Penney -
Hi Tim, I think a flash front end for quizzes and lessons would be a great addition. I'm hoping we can build this into lesson at some point.

For securing quizzes in the presnt tense, we advise faculty to use our latest lesson module, and show the pages one at a time. When included with a decent amount of clustering, this makes it pretty tough for students to cheat (saving source on 50 or so individual questions usually proves harder than just learning the materialsmile.

On the subject of your competitor, I'd suggest heavy testing of their java quiz engine on the standard student machines being older and not running the latest OS. We have alot of problems with java apps in our commercial LMS, as many student machines can't run them (being older and not running the latest OS) and it takes alot of time (esp. for the non-broadband students) to download and install a new JVM (since it is tens of MBs in size).




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In reply to Michael Penney

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Timothy Takemoto -

Thanks a lot Michael.

To be honest I have stuck with the quiz module till now.... I have always been looking forward to using the lesson module but I have not got around to it.

Does the latest lesson module have javascript copy-protection? I agree that fishing around in the source is a pain that makes taking the test easier for most but if they can just copy the page then they might easily do this for each page.

I guess that it would be really easy for me to just extend my copy protection header to cover lesson pages.

Hmm... I am just scared of changing the format part  of quizes way through the course. There seem to be unknowns.

I also find that I CANNOT save the quiz. Or when I do, and then click on the quiz that is saved as a html file, then it opens as "about blank" and does not show me anything. I wonder how that prof (who may like the java machice) managed to do it. If he had to fish around in the source, then I am satisfied for the time being. Stripping HTML tags from around the text of the quiz is a pain.

Also apparently soon (we have been thinking soon for some time) there will be one queston a page in the quiz module.

Also I am not sure that the randomisation is as fexible in the lesson module. Or peraps it is more flexible. (One can import serveral categories into a quiz,  some of which are variations on a particular question, and have one random question taken from that batch of variations. I am reallly looking forward to subcategories but at least multiple categories are possible. I guess there are ways of desinging the lesson maze to achieve the same effect but my mind boggles at the moment. )

Thanks most of all for your tip regarding java. To be honest I have had problems running java programs. The ones that I downloaded from java.com recently worked fine but in the past gimp or something was having problems with my java version.

The almighty boss asked me recently what version of Windows XP is needed to run SMART-HTML (I am asking at another institution that is using it already). It seems he is onto the problem before me. Downloading the latest java runtime is a problem as you say. I have downloaded it and still found that an application (Gimp I think) would not run on my machine.  

Flash is so much nicer. Less clunky. Slick and I have never had a problem with an flash thing not working.

But apparently there are millions of java programmers out there that bought into the philosophy. So it is still in the running. In fact the computer people at my institution are into LMS that run in java. Nerds like java.

Tim

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In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Marcus Green -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
I am both nerd and geek and Java programmer. The Gimp is entirely created in the C language and I am not aware of any aspect, programs, link or connection between the Gimp and Java.
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In reply to Marcus Green

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Timothy Takemoto -

Dear Markus,

Sorry. You are  right of course. The fact that my GIMP crashes (just tested it) has nothing to do with Java.

But I think, I am not 100% sure but I think that I have had problems with a java program recently even after, or particularly after downloading the latest Java runtime. Some kind of dependency problem perhaps? Or perhaps I am imagining it? Bad mouthing java without due evidence? Perhaps, it was the thing that was going to provide a linux like interface for my windows box to communicate with the moodle CVS? Xfiles? I probably just installed it wrong.
http://www.idiom.com/~zilla/xfiles.html

I have just been speaking to the makers of the other system, they say that yes Java is required but that both the Java applet and the Java runtime are stored on the server to be be downloaded the first time that the student uses the software.

Okay, since it is just shy of 10MB it would be difficult for those students that do not have ADSL but Japan is ADSL land (very high rate of penetration) so if there is not that much of a problem. If the students had to go and get the Java runtime from Sun microsystems and they get the wrong one or something then there are problems, but apparently the Java runtime is on the server for students to download. So aren't the problems solved? Or are the problems when the student has already downloaded a runtime which is not compatible with the applet?

But they are saying that the product is tested with XP and Windows PROFESSIONAL, but not with the HOME versions of these operating systems. Any idea why this could be?

Is Java a hassel free, flash beater? Would it be better if there were a Java test rendering machine, not a flash one? 
http://www.java.com/en/index.jsp
http://www.actionscript.com/flashweek/00000533.html
http://www.winneronline.com/articles/september2002/javavsflash.htm

Java anagram creator
http://freespace.virgin.net/martin.mamo/fanagram.html

TIm

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In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Josep M. Fontana -
OK, I didn't even realize that I posted exactly the same message in another thread within THIS SAME forum:

http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=14079

Since I responded there, perhaps we can continue this discussion in the other thread. Although, somehow the initial title of this thread: "Flash Tests Writing to Moodle Tables" is somehow more directly related to the subject matter we are discussing.

Josep M.
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In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Timothy Takemoto -

Is it just me?
http://www.cocurea.com/doubleLC/doubleLC.php
Did not work for me. The applet did not download.

Nor did this demonstration of a Java virtual classroom.
http://www.elluminate.com/site/external/event/playback#
It downloaded 3.4MB of java and then stopped (with the small window showing me a coffee cup and saying "starting application")
I do occasionally experience simiar with pdf files, which are similar in a sense in that they are loading into a massive plugin. But I can't remember ever having had a flash file crash on me.

For example
http://www.miniclip.com/ninja2.htm
http://www.lawandordergame.com/game3/?speed=hi

Tim

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In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Michael Penney -
In Firefox, Win2000, at http://www.cocurea.com/doubleLC/doubleLC.php
I get a gray box with Applet doubleC/LCApplet notinited.

I clicked the 'Java, get it now' button, and was sent to java.com, where I had to find and click another link to "Get Java". Then very little happened, and the page said I had Java (and now I can play all sorts of games!)

Navigated back to the cocurea page, and this time some text briefly flash in the gray box, and then it once again said Applet doubleC/LCApplet notinited.

On IE6, the installer seemed to work ok (it did indeed take several minutes), but after all that when I refreshed the page, I still get a gray boxsad.

Perhaps the Java Virtual Classroom is really just a gray box?

IMO, this sort of un-userfriendly behavior is the LAST thing you want to base something as important(esp to the students) as quizzes.

Flash has its quirks as well, but its version detection and installation code is very robust, esp in the latest versions (even works on MacOS9/IE, a MAJOR featsmile.

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In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Marcus Green -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Java and Flash were created for solving different problems. Flash was originally a simple vector graphics redering system. Java was always a general purpose programming language. Flash has been developed to perform something similar to Java applets and comes with the advantage that more clients (web browsers) have it installed. Java is more suitable for creating fully fledged complex applets, thus you sometimes see Java applets that include sophisticated security but I have never seen such an applet created in flash.

However, I suspect the attraction of flash for a quiz interface is to get a more sophisticated interface rather than do clevery "programmy" type things.

Many years ago I created an applet for delivering a quiz using an applet

You can see the non functioning interface at

http://www.jchq.net/applets/Exam/Exam.htm

Which I think illustrates how typically fugly Java Applets tend to be, plus my tin eye for design smile

There are several books at amazon.com about closely integrating php and flash that might fill in gaps in knowledge.

(note: all references to Java mean the Java language from Sun Microsystems, which has almost nothing whatsoever to do with JavaScript)
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In reply to Michael Penney

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Timothy Takemoto -

Thanks again Michael, for your warning about flash on the other thread. I must say that I find myself downloading the java virtual machine and still failing to get java programs to run. I have no idea why. I am sure it is really standards compliant.

As you mentioned on the other thread there is more htan one version fo flash too but I suspect to just make some multiple choice questions it would not require all that much.

Perhaps if the quizes exported themselves in XML real time to a data directory on the server (that users cannot see) then some cool flash programmer could just put that on the web as flash.

All rather a pipe dream though.

What are you after in the way of flash Joseph, and why?

Tim

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In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Michael Penney -
Hi Tim, not really a pipe dream, I think a flash quiz front end would be a very doable project.

If you can't find a commercial programmer to write this for you, we can do it for ~$1000, but we are rather swamped right now. Mark Nielson is finishing up the lesson abckup/restore code for 1.5, and then putting essay questions into quiz if no one else does first, but then he could work on a flash front-end. Probably couldn't deliver anything before Feb. though.

Are you looking for all the question types are are there just a few that you mainly use (ie MC, T/F, etc.) I'd bet short answer forms would be a bit harder as you'd need flash do string recognition rather than just binary information (ie they clicked this or that, this and that, etc.).

Anyway, this is definitly something we're interested in doing in the next year, we also want a question type for images and maps that allows drag and drop authoring of 'hot spots', which would also be best done with Flash.
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In reply to Michael Penney

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Timothy Takemoto -

Hi Michael,

This conversation seems to be going on at different places (partly my fault).

William Minto has very generously offered to donate $500 to a kitty but perhaps that would depend upon his wife being the eventual outsource? Perhaps not. Either way it is very generous.

And your estimate of $1000 sounds very reasonable.

Personally I would be pretty happy with just Multiple Choice. Perhaps matching too, since it might work well with Flash. I am thinking of the Hot Potatoes style matching quizes that allow one to drag and drop the the items to be matched into an appropriate space. I guess that Flash multiple choice might allow one to drag the answer to a space after the question but that is not a priority for me at all.  

I might be able to get some money from my institution but then everything would have to be signed and sealed in triplicate, and defined. But I think that I might be able to get $1000 for Flash multiple choice. Only trouble is (and it is a big problem) I have got people to prepare detailed proposals, promising to achieve this and this by then, only to have my superiors say no. But three days ago I was told I could spend up to $400 on having the quiz opened in a new Window. $1000 for a Flash MC quiz is a bargain.

Alternatively,  I would be able to promise to contribute $200 from my own pocket money for a no frills Flash versions of the standard multiple choice quizes - just check boxes, except in flash.  Are there other takers?

It would be nice if the intitial XML interface were part of the first steps so that people other flash programmers could use that to create more quiz styles using that XML interface.

The ability to be able to link to audio files would also be essential for me. I am getting down to creating audio files in earnest.

The reason why I asked Joseph about what he is interested in was because I was thinking that he might be looking for more inventive, creative and fun quizes using the full potential of Flash, rather than more mundane ways of locking down the present quiz format from copying. I guess we need to to discuss what we are hoping for so that we can band together.

I am rather into whatever we do being "Moodle-standards compliant" in that quizes would be created with the standard quiz interface (or an margially extended version of the same), exportable and importable using GIFT and Howards XML. An all new flash quiz module is a bit scary because, there is a learning curve, there would be less testers using it, it would have less changes of being supported through versions, or of being backup/restorable.
At the same time, it would not be using the potential of flash. All I am after for the time being is an extra check box on the quiz mod.php (is it) page saying "Render this quiz and feedback page using Flash," and then having the flash versions of attempt.php and feedback.php look pretty much the same, but there being no easy way of saving the source.

If William Minto is prepared to pay $500 for the intial XML socket as it were, then we would only need another $300 for us to be able to to have Flash quizes by about February. That would be in time for my next term, and it would be great.

I was up till early this morning creating quizes. It is sad to think that people are saving the results page as fast as I can create them. Roll on flash, please.
Tim

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In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Timothy Takemoto -
The gentleman in question will probably make an announcement himself but, speaking out of turn, in an attempt to keep the pot boiling, a fellow moodle user here in Japan (usually) has expressed an interest in providing a further $100.

That leaves between $200 and $700 dollars for there to be flash quizes, of a basic type perhaps but once there is an interface (XML?) then the sky is the limit.

Has anyone else $100 to spare for this great and perhaps (amoung bb/webct/ect) unique extension to Moodle.

Tim


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In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Josep M. Fontana -
This is an answer in a hurry because I'm about to depart to MoodleMoot Spain!
Gee, look at me! I'm starting to wonder if this Moodle thing is like a cult. I'm experiencing a strange enthusiasm because of my attendance to this MoodleMoot which I can only compare to some sort of religious experience mixed.  For a nagnostic like me this is a bit worrysome big grin.

Anyway, all I wanted to say is that there will be more money than the $700 Timothy mentions. I can contribute at least another 500 (since a is $1,27 right now, that makes it even more than $500 wink) but it is possible that I can even come up with more (I have to check a few things with my grant). And there is also Peter Ward who has expressed his interest in contributing some money towards this goal as well. But I thank Tim for his fund rising effort. The more money we can come up with the better chances we have to reach our goal.

I already have received some offers from some developers that could help us with this. But more when I come back from MoodleMoot.

Josep M.
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In reply to Josep M. Fontana

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Timothy Takemoto -

I had a chat with my employers today. And I am *pretty* sure that I can get at least $400 from them. That is what I was told.

I would like to reduce my own 'pocket money' offering to $100 (from $200). That means there is $500 from my institution. Then there is our friend DH from Japan who has kindly offered to donate another $100 from his pocket money. That makes $600. Then there is Josep's $500 so we are looking at  about $1100 plus Peter Ward's (and *possibly* William Minto's) contribution. We may be looking at something close to $1500?

Are there any other takers? Adding a flash interface would be a BIG step forward. Please be a part of this.

Once we have a way of talking to flash then we can do some pretty cool things.

http://www.flashplayer.com/games/baloonoverride.html

Tim

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In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by William Minto -
I'm definitely in -- provided that this is all handled professionally. Josep suggested we need a specific "donor" forum to focus on the startup and management of the Flash interface project. I agree that would be a good idea.
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In reply to William Minto

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Jamie Pratt -
Hi all,

I was very excited to find this thread. I hope you haven't decided on someone to work on this yet.

I'm working on Flash - Moodle integration for my web site hindiwallah.com I'm going to build various Flash movies that will interact with moodle.

Interaction between Flash and Moodle can be done through XML. PHP can generate XML just like it can HTML. Flash has functionality in it to load and parse XML and this can be used to load data into a configurable movie. Flash sends data to a php script through http "GET" or "POST" methods like a regular html form sends the data inputed into its form to a PHP script.

If you want to create a quizz module in Flash you could load the questions through XML into the Flash movie and then when the user has finished the quizz on the quizz final feedback page or after each question you could send the results to a PHP script to record how the user did.

All that it would take to do this is to create a XML script to send questions in XML format to the Flash movie instead of sending HTML to the browser. You would need another script to handle storing the results in the moodle database. These scripts could be based on the scipts that already exist for outputting HTML we would just strip away the presentational element of the HTML and just send the relevant data to the Flash movie. The flash movie would need to display the different question types.

I would be happy to pause work on my own web site and work on this. I would also produce some more generic code (PHP and actionscript) and tutorials for interfacing Flash to Moodle for around 1500 dollars. I could start work immediately and would be finished in around 6 weeks.

The only technical difficulty I foresee is to display fill in the blank question (cloze questions). I think this will be challenging in Flash although it is easy to do in HTML.

Jamie
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In reply to Jamie Pratt

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Timothy Takemoto -

Dear Jamie,

I am responding here on this thread because this is the one that we are using started by Josep Montana, but I have read your response to me on the other thread.

Thanks very much for the above quote. Cloze is not a priority for me at the moment. Sounds great to me. But it is me alone (perhaps) that is particularly interested in a plain Flash rendition of the quiz module. On the other hand I think that Josep and others may more more interested in different, more flash (if you excuse the pun) things.  I am just into a more secure version of the quiz. Flash flash, that is to say a module using the capabilities of flash, with objects that move are movable things would be nice too.

Your bid seems very reasonable to me but at the same time there are other bidders, all with their own objectives. What you are offering sounds very reasonable but I think I only have about $500 or $600 to spend at most, at the moment. So we probably need to be more democratic about our aims.

Josep feels that we talk about money on a private forum. Money being a sensitive issue...Umm...but where? "On one of our moodles" was Josep's suggestion. My moodles default to Japanese so they would not be very convenient for creating new accounts.

I note that Josep, Don, yourself Jamie, and myself are language teachers. I am not sure if it would be private enough but we might consider moving this discussion to a forum on the Moodle for Language Teaching course, that I have just created here:
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/view.php?id=3125
This would keep our moodling on moole.org

But if that is not suitable then I will delete that forum, and perhaps one of the funders (rather than a bidder because we do not know who will be commissoned) might consider making a forum. Please let us know.

I can make a new installation of Moodle (with default English language) given a bit of time.

I am happy with an open forum myself but I respect the fact that others would like to keep their  budgets, and the restrictions placed upon them out of the public domain. To be honest I might feel the same way but I think that it is unlikely that those that hold the purse strings at my Japanese institution read forums in English, here or anywhere.

Tim




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In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Jamie Pratt -
I look forward to talking more about how I might help with this exciting project.

Let me know where you move the discussion to. Maybe email with ccs would be easiest.

I'd be interested in continuing a public discussion of how to fit Flash integration into the moodle project.

I think we should have a generic module for Flash activities. An activity module like the quizz module or lesson module. I've looked at how to code activities and have started on integrating my flash movie into moodle as an activity module with its own directory in the mods directory. view.php in my movies directory which normally spews out html to display an instance of the activity from the database just displays the flash movie in an html page. Then the flash movie accesses xml from the moodle database from a script I based on view.php which generates xml instead of the normal html.

I'm loading in a different flash movie based on settings in the database and then initialising them with xml taken from the database.

I'm not sure how a more general Flash socket would work. It sounds like it would be a security problem. All communication between Flash should be assumed to be not completley secure unfortunately. There are ways to be make it fairly secure to the level that only an accomplished web programmer could do nasty things. This is because all communication between moodle and Flash would be through http, we can hide passwords in compiled Flash movies and we can allow installers who have access to the Flash authoring environment to recompile the movies with their own passwords but even then there is a risk of someone decompiling the movie and finding the password. We definitely should not open up the whole moodle database to access to Flash movies and a too general socket might open up too much access to the database! I think if a movies access to the database is through defined funcitons to add grades for completed activities etc, limited to tables related to the flash movie instance that the risk of nastiness is minimal. It won't be worth someone hacking the interface just to insert false grades. If only a small portion of the database and defined transactions are available to the flash movie and some tricks are used to secure communications the effort of hacking it and the pay off of doing so would be much less attractive than more conventional cheating.

There is the option of keeping all answer checking on the server and not passing any sensitive data to or from the Flash movie and this is the only way I can see to have complete security.

Jamie

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In reply to Jamie Pratt

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Richard Treves -
Before you take this discussion away to talk money some place else (as you should) can I chip in?

I've no access to funds but I'd love to see some work done on integrating flash with moodle systems (presuming you're happy with releasing your work).  I think this would open up great possibilities.  I wish you luck and please keep us posted on progress.  If you need help testing I'm happy to chip in.

Cheers

Richard


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In reply to Richard Treves

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Josep M. Fontana -
First, let me apologize for having taken so long to get back to this discussion. I have an extremely busy quarter and I'm trying to juggle with many different things at the same time. 

OK, here's the situation. I'm having a very difficult time trying to figure out how to proceed with respect to this initiative. On the one hand, there would be many advantages to have a totally open discussion about this project in this or some other forum. In the Moodle community there are many people who are really good programmers/developers and although they might not be able for whatever reason to participate directly in it, they might provide some really valuable advice and guidance . On the other hand, there are some issues that  I don't think belong in an open discussion forum. The people who have pledged money are related to institutions and companies that have specific needs and I think they have a right to decide what is more of a priority for them or which of the projects presented by the different bidders offers more guarantees to meet their specific needs in relation to the integration of Flash with Moodle. Since some of the people who have offered themselves to work in this project are participants in this forum as well, I find it pretty uncomfortable (at least for me) to have to discuss whether a particular proposal is better than the other or it is too expensive and things like this in an open forum. There are also discussions concerning how the money has to be spent or who pays for what, which are totally uninteresting for other participants in the forum.

The conclusion I have reached is that the best thing to do would be to set up a private forum for donors but at the same time provide everybody in this forum with a periodical report about how the project is going. Of course, everybody would then have a right to give their opinion and advice.

As for Richard Treves' question concerning whether this work would be released to the community, my answer is: I wouldn't have it any other way. I think the rest of the donors would agree with this as well. I hope to have a good product in the end, but others can come after us and make it even better for everybody to use and enjoy. That is the Moodle way.

I have set up a forum in my Moodle site and all the people who have pledged money will receive a message with instructions about how to login in my site. I promise that after we have discussed the most urgent issues, we will post a message in this forum explaining what we have decided and will be able to make a joint proposal as to how other people who like Richard Treves or others who cannot be directly involved in development or cannot put in any money but would still like to be more directly involved in this project can participate in it.

I have to run now. This discussion will certainly continue.

Josep M.
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In reply to Josep M. Fontana

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Jamie Pratt -
Hi all, I have my first Flash activities online, mainly for demonstration purposes. You can see them here : http://hindiwallah.com/course/view.php?id=2 You can log in as a student with this id username : tom password : tomtom , to see the activity recording your attempts at the quizz in real time. Notice that the recent activity block shows how people have done with the quizz. Also teachers can view student activity with the quizz. There is no gradebook integration yet but that won't be difficult. I found that this integration was not difficult actually. All the functionality to integrate flash with moodle is there already. We just need to change a few things I think. And we could do with some actionscript and php code that would hide some of the actual mechanics of generating and parsing xml. I will write more about what I have found out and how I think we should best integrate Flash with moodle when I have time. Look forward to continuing this discussion. Jamie
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In reply to Jamie Pratt

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by Josep M. Fontana -
Hi Jamie,

Very nice Flash applets!!
I think this can give people a very good idea about the kinds of things one can do with Flash for language teaching. For a while, I was worried that all people were interested in doing was just replicating with Flash the old and tired (albeit still very useful) cloze, multiple choice and true/false quizzes. But, really, with a little creativity Flash can be a really powerful tool as you've shown.

OK, the fact that a summary of the results can be seen in the "recent activity" block shows that you have managed to get Flash to communicate with the Moodle Data base. From there I imagine that, as you say, getting these results to be outputted (is this correct English?) to the Grade Book would be rather trivial.

The issue I am still concerned with, though, is how the approach you have taken would enable one to create other applets different from the ones you have created and integrate them into Moodle in an easy way. Do you see what I mean? The approach you have taken, from what I'm able to see, is like the one I said in my first posting in this thread a friend of mine had suggested: building a bridge directly between Flash and the Moodle data base. But the problem (with which he wasn't able to help me because he didn't know Moodle) remains as to how the average user of Moodle can create their own applets and have them become a part of their Moodle without having to hire a programmer every time to write the script that acts as the bridge between the new Flash applet and the Moodle data base.

What I was hoping (and I think it should be technically possible to do) is to be able to build an interface (perhaps similar to the one we have now for quizzes), possibly in the form of some sort of basic template, that could be easily modified to incorporate new types of applets. Also, these applets could be based on the so-called components that come with the MX version of Flash so that users could easily customize them and change them slightly to be able to build many different instances of the same kind of activity with the same basic template. This could actually be an additional source of income for people who can build Flash applets to meet the needs or particular customers. Of course, people could also freely share them if they want. For those interested in learning about Flash components:

http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mx/flash/articles/components.html
http://www.flashcomponents.net/tutorials/triangle/triangle.html
http://actionscript-toolbox.com/flashmx_components.php

I hope I have been able to explain what I had in mind clearly enough. Perhaps the only solution is to have the script or set of scripts like the one you've written for your activities and change it to adapt it to each new type of applet one wants to incorporate into Moodle. But I think there has to be a way to make this a bit easier. Also there is the issue of Moodle updates. Wouldn't it be simply a matter of doing the upgrade as one does it now and copying the appropriate scripts in the corresponding directory?

Anyway, again, congratulations for your nice work with the Devanagiri Vowels activities and definitely let's continue discussing this. The goal of making it possible for Flash activities to be integrated fully into Moodle is definitely closer.

If you, or anybody in this forum, have an idea as to how the kind of interface I'm talking about could be created, please let us know.

Josep M.
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In reply to Timothy Takemoto

Re: Integration of Flash with Moodle (need someone to work on it)

by ryan wise -

Flash .swf files are downloaded when they are viewed.

Keep in mind that flash files can be disassembled and even unlocked, so any information contained in the .swf is open to the public.

Flash is not secure, unless you're using it in some way that I haven't anticipated.  

Ryan Wise

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In reply to Peter Ward

Flash and Moodle - use SCORM

by Eamon O Doherty -
We at Ossidian.com have been developing Flash content and tests for several years. We ported them to the SCORM 1.2 standard and they work very well within the SCORM module of Moodle - tracking progress etc. Flash MX has all the tools to create the SCORM LMS calls - all you need is a SCORM 1.2 Javascript wrapper. Try adlnet.org for appropriate documentation and downloads.

I would seriously recommend against going a proprietary route to making Flash talk to Moodle tables. The world of elearning is very standards-directed and, although SCORM is not perfect, surely does not need yet another set of protocols ?
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In reply to Eamon O Doherty

Re: Flash and Moodle - use SCORM

by Josep M. Fontana -
Hi Eamon,

Well, standards are indeed a good thing and I tend to agree with you in that we don't need yet another set of protocols. Yet, from what I've been able to experience so far, SCORM is a real pain. I'm not a computer whiz but I've been dealing with computers and many different types of applications for almost 20 years now. And for the life of me I don't seem to be able to make SCORM work. Putting together a SCORM activity (that works) is not the easiest or most intuitive thing in the world. Apparently I'm not the only one that has problems, judging by some of the postings in the SCORM discussion forum:

http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=10913#72286

I'm all for standards but I'm also for making e-learning materials creation accessible to as many people as possible. SCORM is turning out to be a very frustrating experience (at least within Moodle).

Josep M.
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In reply to Eamon O Doherty

Re: Flash and Moodle - use SCORM

by Jamie Pratt -
Hi Eamon,

There is a more recent discussion going on in the developer forum on this topic and most of the participants in the discussion on this page are involved in that discussion.

I took the liberty of copying and pasting your post to that forum and responding to it there, hope you don't mind. I think the developer forum is a more appropriate place for this discussion since it concerns more than just the quiz activity module.

I hope you will join the discussion over in the developer forum.Have you found a way to make Flash talk to the SCORM api on all browsers. If not how do you deal with users whose browsers don't support Flash - javascript communications?

Jamie
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