Shane and I finished the thing we always meant to put in the new resource adding screen, the collapsible sections that make it less daunting to users.
It's a bigger change than I usually like to make between a beta and release, but it seems to work fine for me on all browsers even with javascript off so it's in the stable tree.
I'd like to hear feedback about the interface from testers though. Please add some resources using latest code (you can even use the teacher playground on moodle.org) ... especially links to external sites or uploaded files.
It is less daunting and it works well. Logical design is easier to understand, hopefully, even for new users. Thanks
Please excuse my stupidity--but I do not know what you mean by "collapsible sections". I just logged in as teacher in the teacher's playground. I see that you have separated resources from activities--good, and when adding resources there is a choice to have them open in a new window--very good, and you have added the parameters variables for a Link to a file or web site resource--cool but still confusing as to how it works.
I was expecting to see something "collapsible", for example similar to a menu tree, in the sections, but don't have a clue as to what I am looking for--are you talking about the "settings" buttons for resources? And by [being less daunting for] users do you mean end-users (which is what I thought) or teachers (which is what it looks like)? And, did I just answer my own questions?
Other than being confused by the terms, it looks/works fine--except for passing variables to a web page--this is obviously not intuitive and will require some sort of user(teacher) documentation/explanation--okay now I have to go back and see if you have added a help button for this.
In reply to Chardelle Busch
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Martin Dougiamas -
Yes Chardelle, teachers are the only ones who can use that page, and yes, the "settings" buttons that make the form "unfold" are the new things I was talking about. Previously they were always extended, and the form was quite long.
Here's how it looks now:
Here's how it looks now:
In reply to Martin Dougiamas
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Martin Dougiamas -
Here's how it looked before ...
I like this new feature, it really helps the beginners 
Maybe in all modules (especially module properties mod.html) there could be some magic button to switch between "beginners/advanced view" instead. We could then make the modules much more powerfull without making too complex for beginners...
Maybe in all modules (especially module properties mod.html) there could be some magic button to switch between "beginners/advanced view" instead. We could then make the modules much more powerfull without making too complex for beginners...
Hi Petr!
"Beginners/Advanced View" buttons might cause some confusion because they would imply there is a beginner way to do the functions in the collapsed windows which there is not.
I think adding the "Help" buttons would be more useful". The default cookie idea to leave the windows open on first use sounds good with cookie "remembrance" as to the state of the collapsible windows [open/closed] on last use.
WP1
"Beginners/Advanced View" buttons might cause some confusion because they would imply there is a beginner way to do the functions in the collapsed windows which there is not.
I think adding the "Help" buttons would be more useful". The default cookie idea to leave the windows open on first use sounds good with cookie "remembrance" as to the state of the collapsible windows [open/closed] on last use.
WP1
In reply to Martin Dougiamas
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Gustav W Delius -
I am afraid I don't like the change 
. In the old version it was so immediately obvious to the user that there was a choice between having the resource open in a new window or not. In the new version the user has to click on an extra button before this possibility is revealed. I think that is a big disadvantage for new users. And for users who already know that they can open in a new window it means an extra unnecessary click each time.
. In the old version it was so immediately obvious to the user that there was a choice between having the resource open in a new window or not. In the new version the user has to click on an extra button before this possibility is revealed. I think that is a big disadvantage for new users. And for users who already know that they can open in a new window it means an extra unnecessary click each time.
In reply to Gustav W Delius
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Martin Dougiamas -
The extra click is not really such a big deal is it, compared to scrolling every time to click "save"? And it's not like an extra page - the action is instantaneous.
Maybe what we need here is a cookie or a user preference that remembers the last condition of the "fold out" parts of the form.
Maybe what we need here is a cookie or a user preference that remembers the last condition of the "fold out" parts of the form.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Gustav W Delius -
I am not so concerned about the extra click as about the fact that new users won't see that they can choose between opening in a new window or not.
I would move the "Save changes" button up on the page, then print clearly that all settings below are optional and then have a second copy of the "Save changes" button at the bottom. That way people who don't need the extra settings will a) not have to scroll and b) will not be intimidated by them.
In reply to Gustav W Delius
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Martin Dougiamas -
I have to disagree with you on this one, Gustav. There's been
several reports here before about new users being put off and bamboozled by too
much information when all they
want to do is add a link. Some of my clients hate the long screen totally and want the two-level screen back. Some complained when the popup window settings were added to the second screen. There's not a clear consensus here which is why I think the collapsible screens with a user preference is best.
In this case it's not even important if they miss the Settings button the first time - the default defaults work fine as they are (and those defaults are customisable at a site level by the admin in Modules >> Resource >> Config). If they really do need a popup window then I think anyone looking for it on that page will find it quite easily.
Moving the Save Changes button is an idea to keep in mind.
In this case it's not even important if they miss the Settings button the first time - the default defaults work fine as they are (and those defaults are customisable at a site level by the admin in Modules >> Resource >> Config). If they really do need a popup window then I think anyone looking for it on that page will find it quite easily.
Moving the Save Changes button is an idea to keep in mind.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Przemyslaw Stencel -
Not sure about the "Save Changes" thing 
If there are two of those buttons, some people will think that the upper one is for saving changes in the basic settings, and the bottom one - for saving the optional settings.
In reply to Przemyslaw Stencel
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Gustav W Delius -
If they did, what harm would be done?
If you think it would be helpful, the buttons could be called "Save all settings".
In reply to Gustav W Delius
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Chardelle Busch -
I think the Display (Show Settings) button is fine the way it is. Much better than having the options come up laterand the extra click is not much of a problem, and a cookie should eliminate even that. And it is fairly intuitivefor example if you dont know what one of the options means you can just click it, then take a look and see what happensthis is similar to many of the options in Moodle, for example when adding a forumyou can just click options and then see what happensno RTFM involved. Im not sure about the name Display, though, Target is the typical name for this type of action, but Window is more descriptive of what the settings are doing.
As for the Parameters Although it is great to have these options available, this section is way too advanced for the typical teacher. As you said yourself Martin,
There's been several reports here before about new users being put off and bamboozled by too much information when all they want to do is add a link.
This section is not intuitivepassing parameters is a fairly advanced type of coding (I am assuming you could create your own resource that would retrieve the parameters?) unless you already know of a use for it. And the Help section is really not much help. E.g. I didnt even have a clue what you were talking about until you put the Google search example in a post.
It seems like the most useful use for this feature would be to pass a particular search word to Googlebut the option to add your own parameter to pass isnt there.
Ideas: 1. Like Petr mentioned, maybe have these types of advanced features separated outby either a button, or maybe have these options available only to admins? Or maybe the admin can have the option to display these advanced features to teachers or not?
2. Create a more in-depth help for this featureincluding maybe some of examples of how you could use it.
Bottom Line: In my opinion the Parameters feature isn't GUI enough yet for teachers.
Hi Chardelle!
I understand what you mean. But, I feel the Parameters window is a useful one where it is. Some of the instructors do know what to do with it and it really allows the individual teacher flexibility in setting up different resources. So I think it should stay there. Those that know how to use it can and those who don't can just ignore it. It is not essential for all resources.
Admins should also have the option to allow it to display or not to display.
IMHO
WP1
I understand what you mean. But, I feel the Parameters window is a useful one where it is. Some of the instructors do know what to do with it and it really allows the individual teacher flexibility in setting up different resources. So I think it should stay there. Those that know how to use it can and those who don't can just ignore it. It is not essential for all resources.
Admins should also have the option to allow it to display or not to display.
IMHO
WP1
Okay WP1,
Then will you tell me how to use it? Give several examples maybe?
Chardelle
Hi Chardelle,
First let me say because I may not know how to use an activity or resource completely in Moodle, I would not feel that it should be removed. Others may need to use it .
I am also not an expert in this.
I did not fully understand its use at first until someone asked a question about passing grades and other information from one software application [Moodle] to another without the need to login again. Martin then referred him to the Parameters. It apparently can be used for authenication of some type. See these threads.
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=11459
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=11551
This points out the need for good "Help Files". They are indespensible when new features are added, moved or have a different layout than previously.
Many of the Teachers in Grade School through High School would like a "Parent Page" so parents could log in and see grades as well as some other things about their children. College professors may not see a need for this. Does that mean it is not important to have?
Just a few more of my thoughts on the matter with supportive threads demonstrating a need for this feature.
WP1
First let me say because I may not know how to use an activity or resource completely in Moodle, I would not feel that it should be removed. Others may need to use it .
I am also not an expert in this.
I did not fully understand its use at first until someone asked a question about passing grades and other information from one software application [Moodle] to another without the need to login again. Martin then referred him to the Parameters. It apparently can be used for authenication of some type. See these threads.
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=11459
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=11551
This points out the need for good "Help Files". They are indespensible when new features are added, moved or have a different layout than previously.
Many of the Teachers in Grade School through High School would like a "Parent Page" so parents could log in and see grades as well as some other things about their children. College professors may not see a need for this. Does that mean it is not important to have?
Just a few more of my thoughts on the matter with supportive threads demonstrating a need for this feature.
WP1
In reply to Chardelle Busch
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Martin Dougiamas -
Here's a simple example of a resource with one parameter. Look at the URL of the bottom frame and it should fairly clear what's going on.
You could use this to pass the current user's name or course to a Flash movie, for example, so that you could use that information within the Flash code.
You could use this to pass the current user's name or course to a Flash movie, for example, so that you could use that information within the Flash code.
Hi Martin!
I would not say that example was "simple" I would say it was "creative".
WP1
I would not say that example was "simple" I would say it was "creative".
WP1
WP1 et al.,
Nobody has mentioned that the parameters option be eliminated, I think there are some good reasons to use it (and yes, Martin I am already trying to figure out how to pass variables to Flash, but wish I was able to "insert" my own variables, e.g. a quiz score).
I was only addressing Martin's question. Having this "unintuitive" interface available for teachers, as opposed to giving admins a choice of having it available, could create confusion for teachers and thus wreak havoc on admins. Just my opinion.
Chardelle
In reply to Martin Dougiamas
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Gustav W Delius -
Could we perhaps just have the radio buttons for showing the resource in a new window or the same window showing by default and the further settings for those windows only come up when clicking on the "Show settings" button? This button could then also be renamed to "Set window properties" which will be clearer.
This hasn't gone through much user testing yet but I imagine that users could be confused by the current screen without further explanations in the help screens. Next to "Display:" it says "Show settings". Are you sure that users will not think that this button somehow affects how the resource will be displayed, that it displays some settings on the resource page? And when they click on the help icon next to the Parameters: Show settings button it tells them to enter parameters. It doesn't tell them to press the button and THEN enter parameters.
Hello All!
A "Set window properties" button might be clearer.
WP1
A "Set window properties" button might be clearer.
WP1
In reply to Martin Dougiamas
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Ger Tielemans -
Why not make it a settings choice on the admin page of the module? Then the admin (read gustav and ger ) can choose to collapse or not collapse the screen we offer to our users?
(the same for an extra save button on top, also a settings choice and also handy on lots of other pages like the quizz create page)
In reply to Ger Tielemans
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Martin Dougiamas -
In reply to Martin Dougiamas
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Ger Tielemans -
Oops, astonishing fast moving object
I second Gustav's request. I am trying to get a large number of "technophobes" trained in the use of Moodle. These individuals would have a great deal of difficulty adjusting to the change in the screen layout.
Please place a button at the top and the bottom (as we did in the grading view). For my situation this would be most user friendly.
As far as the cookie, that is a great idea, but the default should be "all visable" until the user collapses the view.
Thanks Martin, I hope this can be facilitated before Monday. I really don't need to hear all the fussing if this change becomes permanent 
Marc
Hey, Marc, you got your wish.
In return can you please write me a help file for the Display section, explaining what all the items are in language suitable for your "technophobes"? I really need this today.
In return can you please write me a help file for the Display section, explaining what all the items are in language suitable for your "technophobes"? I really need this today.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Martin Dougiamas -
In reply to Martin Dougiamas
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Martin Dougiamas -
I've implemented the individual user preferences in CVS. The panels are now sticky for each user. I'm just adding two resource parameters at site level so you can set these defaults too. 
In reply to Martin Dougiamas
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Gustav W Delius -
Wow, you are quick. And you really want to make everyone happy! 
Now just one little request: how about changing "Show settings" to "Choose settings"?
In reply to Gustav W Delius
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Martin Dougiamas -
Did you think the reason I work all day on open source is to annoy people? 
After some thought, I've changed "Display" back to the original "Window" so that should avoid the double-meaning problem.
Thanks to everyone who posted in this thread, I think the interface is looking better for it.
After some thought, I've changed "Display" back to the original "Window" so that should avoid the double-meaning problem.
Thanks to everyone who posted in this thread, I think the interface is looking better for it.
Some of the people some of the time........? ah well.....
I luv it Mart
As a bit of a clicker myself (not doing the RTFM thing)
I found it much easier to get a web page coming up properly intuitively , so I won't be putting everything in a 'frame'
Can I quote you Prezemek ?
"Another general comment:
When linking to an external website, I think it is better (for netiquette reasons) to link to them using the Web Link type of resource (opening in a new window) rather than the Web Page type. Webmasters generally don't like to have their websites trapped in frames. Some even use special javascript to escape from frames (see Detailed information: fMRI in Sandbox A for a perfect example).
A pdf file came up perfectly first time,looks great
Blocks on the front page, nice look for editing students but there's more....
Watch the activity in the Comparison Advocacy forum ?
I luv it Mart
As a bit of a clicker myself (not doing the RTFM thing)
I found it much easier to get a web page coming up properly intuitively , so I won't be putting everything in a 'frame'
Can I quote you Prezemek ?
"Another general comment:
When linking to an external website, I think it is better (for netiquette reasons) to link to them using the Web Link type of resource (opening in a new window) rather than the Web Page type. Webmasters generally don't like to have their websites trapped in frames. Some even use special javascript to escape from frames (see Detailed information: fMRI in Sandbox A for a perfect example).
A pdf file came up perfectly first time,looks great
Blocks on the front page, nice look for editing students but there's more....
Watch the activity in the Comparison Advocacy forum ?
Martin-The display options for a resource in a new window are not inherently clear to me. In particular, the following ones-
Show the directory links
Show the location bar
Show the menu bar
Show the toolbar
Show the status bar
Perhaps a help item needs to be associated with this one so that people understand how it works.
Show the directory links
Show the location bar
Show the menu bar
Show the toolbar
Show the status bar
Perhaps a help item needs to be associated with this one so that people understand how it works.
I think a help item about these settings would be very useful. We also need one for the Parameters section. If someone writes one then I am sure Martin will allow us to put it in.
In reply to Gustav W Delius
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Martin Dougiamas -
There is one for the parameters section .. but sure, I'll add one for display settings if someone can write one.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Samuli Karevaara -
This is from the nit-pick-department, but I guess any testing feedback is good I'm not sure if you can do anything about it, might be a browser bug, but:
When I first arrive to this "Adding a new Resource" page with the options hidden, there is no vertical scroll bar if the resolution is big enough. After clicking Window: Show settings there usually is a vertical scroll bar. After I click "Hide settings" the scroll bar stays there! Odd...
The Parameters: Show settings reveals a shorter list, so for me clicking this one removes the scroll bar again. What happened was that I clicked near the left edge of the button, the scroll bar disappeared and the contents of the page was moved a bit to the right, moving the button (Parameters: Show settings) away from underneath the mouse. This caused the effect that the browser thought I "backed out" from clicking the button and didn't click it, revealing no settings.
Did anyone understand what I tried to say ? Anyway, not a big deal, just weird though.
When I first arrive to this "Adding a new Resource" page with the options hidden, there is no vertical scroll bar if the resolution is big enough. After clicking Window: Show settings there usually is a vertical scroll bar. After I click "Hide settings" the scroll bar stays there! Odd...
The Parameters: Show settings reveals a shorter list, so for me clicking this one removes the scroll bar again. What happened was that I clicked near the left edge of the button, the scroll bar disappeared and the contents of the page was moved a bit to the right, moving the button (Parameters: Show settings) away from underneath the mouse. This caused the effect that the browser thought I "backed out" from clicking the button and didn't click it, revealing no settings.
Did anyone understand what I tried to say
In reply to Samuli Karevaara
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Martin Dougiamas -
Which browser and what screen resolution?
In reply to Martin Dougiamas
Re: Please test new collapsible resource-adding page
by Samuli Karevaara -
- Firefox 0.9.3 on Windows XP Pro SP 1 (Finnish) with the default (Bliss) theme
- The tabs of the browser are always visible.
- Browser theme: Cute 2.1.2, large icons. No bookmarks toolbar, no sidebar.
- Windows Taskbar is two rows high.
- Screen resolution 1280 x 1028, browser window maximized.
- No large fonts in Windows.
- Moodle with the standard theme.
- The tabs of the browser are always visible.
- Browser theme: Cute 2.1.2, large icons. No bookmarks toolbar, no sidebar.
- Windows Taskbar is two rows high.
- Screen resolution 1280 x 1028, browser window maximized.
- No large fonts in Windows.
- Moodle with the standard theme.