Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Bob Puffer -
Number of replies: 60
I've been the strongest proponent of Moodle and a devoted adherent to the direction Moodle's gone with their gradebook. I've studied it extensively so as to answer the pounding questions from my faculty. For almost all of the questions they've proposed I've been able to supply solutions or workarounds. Therefore, I've concluded the Moodle gradebook is fundamentally sound.

However... through its desire to do everything, it is so difficult for the average user that it is, in fact doing nothing for many of the users I previously had using our gradebook (gbv2). They have abandoned it for Excel -- and not without disparaging words for anyone associated with its making or support (including myself).

I read these forums religiously and am finding very little, serious effort being put into correcting the major shortfalls in the Moodle gradebook's usability. A far from exhaustive sample :
  1. Language suggestions (what else can we call something so its easier to understand by non-Math faculty)
  2. Course total points that actually represent the total points for the course
  3. Update button at top
  4. Pictures and names that scroll off the screen so you've no idea if you're inputting grades for the right person.
  5. Eliminating "Overridden" flag so if someone accidentally overrides something they don't have to remove it one cell at a time through the use of five clicks.
  6. Eliminating individual cell edit icons (are these REALLY used by anyone?)
  7. Easier weighting of grades (doesn't every grade automatically have a weight even if its parent category isn't "Weighted mean of grades"?)
  8. Easier adding of items (click "add x number of items" button)
  9. In-line editing of item and category names, not yet another screen.
  10. Easier creation of categories
  11. Easier assignment of items to categories (Some work has been done on this but its current state is questionable)
  12. Extra credit for any aggravation method including awarding more than the maximum points
  13. "Curve to" that allows grades higher than the max
  14. Do we actually need locks? Does the value outweigh the immense added complexity?
  15. Real value of "Multiplier" (the only explanation I've heard about this is a way to get around the 100-point maximum, which everyone I know has hacked anyway)
  16. Export maximum points for items to Excel (calcs in Excel are worthless without the max)
  17. Reverse letter grade conversion -- input a letter and if it corresponds with a scale value, run with it
If you've gotten this far you probably feel like I do that something SERIOUS needs to occur quickly on the Moodle gradebook. The LSU simple gradebook solves an immense number of these problems yet it doesn't even have its own discussion forum by which community involvement can assist in its perfection. Likewise, I've not heard a single inference that some of LSU's repairs are even being considered for Moodle core code. About a dozen hackers (representing about 150 Liberal Arts school using Moodle in the US) will convene just after the first of the year with a major impetus to "fix anything we can". Many of us are constrained to not making core-code modifications which certainly limits our ability to do much more than right a custom report plugin. I urge the Moodle governors to give serous consideration to provide substantial relief on the Moodle gradebook in the very near term so core

In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by A. T. Wyatt -
I agree with everything you have said. I have two more things to add to the list:

You have #16 Export maximum points for items to Excel (calcs in Excel are worthless without the max)

I would add that the maximum # of points should be displayed in the gradebook as well. This is not a problem when grading with the assignment interface, since the max value is clearly visible in the dropdown box. This lack of "max points available" in the gradebook interface has been a source of intense aggravation to me all semester.

Let us also add assignment names that make the screen so wide. I spend a lot of time clicking the collapse icon, but in a large category, it still doesn't help the horizontal scrolling problem because I cannot collapse/hide individual items. There is a hack (IE only, I think) that allows you to display the assignment names vertically.

Do you think that all these items are in the tracker? I understand that the tracker is the best place to get them noticed. If you haven't looked yet, let me know and I will try to help you. I am ready to go back to excel myself. GBv2 did everything I needed, and I could use it. I can't seem to deal with the complexities of the new gradebook.

atw
In reply to A. T. Wyatt

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Mary Cooch -
Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators
Hear hear...especially regarding the infuriating widescreen horizontal scrolling.. I'm one of those non-maths people - I can barely do Excel even, but I coped with the old gradebook fine. I feel with this one I've gone backwards, and yet I am the one supposed to be encouraging others to use it... I can'tsad
In reply to Mary Cooch

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Mark Guy -

My solution to the wide scrolling issue is to catigorise all my resources and view the Averages, only expanding the catigory section that I currently need at the time. I now also take great care in naming the catagories to minimise the column widths.

In reply to Mark Guy

Re: Moodle Gradebook horizontal scrolling

by Helen Foster -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators
Regarding wide-screen horizontal scrolling, would the problem be solved by the scroll grades while students stay fixed feature in LSU's simple grader report (see screenshot in the LSU simple grader report documentation)?

I don't know whether displaying assignment names vertically would be such a good plan, since it would result in more vertical scrolling.
In reply to Helen Foster

Re: Moodle Gradebook horizontal scrolling

by Deb Burdick-Hinton -
When I used WebCT you could add an a short version of each graded assignment that would be displayed to instructors in the gradebook and the long name would be viewed by students and on the assignment link. I really miss this functionality. Not being able to view all the students grades at a glance is a real bummer and yes I have made categories, collapse them, reorder them (since names do not stick when you scroll) but so much extra work and time that it is getting really frustrating.

Thanks for brainstorming solutions!
In reply to A. T. Wyatt

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Bob Puffer -
I believe it unfortunate for all Moodlers that "squeaking" the Tracker appears to get most of the "grease". A bug tracker is great at what it is... tracking bugs -- but sucks at providing a cohesive plan to provide for the future or fix the past.
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Marc Grober -
But to return to the hammer and anvil..... that is what the hammers demand..... and that may be the reason for the kind of disaffectation (is that really a word - as in development of negative affect?) seen....

Extensive discussion in the fora results in notes that indicate that serious proposals or comments need to be added to tracker..... and a review of the open tracker items, or even a consideration of how anyone might address the totality of the items in trackers is frightening......

But at present, those complaining impact development only through the degree of deference or consideration core developers permit.... and I am not trying to be insulting or demeaning in any way here..... and the degree to which any group adopts the poisonous people kind of philosophy is directly proportionate I think to the degree of linearity of core developers, to offer a bit of a play on words.....

The upside is that narrower focus should, one might think, provide a more robust more narrowly focused product...... but such conclusions are potentially fallacious based on your point of view (consider gradebook). Another issue is the degree of change, which I think increases with a narrowing of developers (consider what may be weekly and even daily patches to stable versions without altering revision numbers.)

There have been a number of studies done on the open software community and the communication and decision making therein, most notably focusing on apache and linux projects..... the literature (as opposed to what one might consider management psycho-babble) is intriguing. See, for example:

Roberts, J., Hann, I., & Slaughter, S. (2006, July). Understanding the
Motivations, Participation, and Performance of Open Source Software
Developers: A Longitudinal Study of the Apache Projects. Management Science,
52(7), 984-999. Retrieved November 11, 2008, from Business Source Premier
database.

Wu, C., Gerlach, J., & Young, C. (2007, April). An empirical analysis of
open source software developers' motivations and continuance intentions.
Information & Management, 44(3), 253-262. Retrieved November 11, 2008, from
EJS E-Journals database.

Hertel, G., Niedner, S., & Herrmann, S. (2003, July). Motivation of software
developers in Open Source projects: an Internet-based survey of contributors
to the Linux kernel. Research Policy, 32(7), 1159. Retrieved November 11,
2008, doi:10.1016/S0048-7333(03)00047-7

Also of interest might be the following two refs:

Martin, Matthew M., and Carolyn M. Anderson.. "Argumentativeness and verbal
aggressiveness." Journal of Social Behavior & Personality 11.3 (Sep. 1996): 547-554. Psychology and Behavioral Sciences Collection. EBSCO. Alaska State Library, Juneau, AK. 8 Nov. 2008 <http://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=pbh&AN=9610200471&site=ehost-live>;.

Kim, Min-Sun. "Culture-Based Conversational Constraints Theory." Theorizing About
Intercultural Communication Ed. William Gudykunst. Thousand Oaks, CA:Sage, 2004. 94-118. 11 November 2008 <http://books.google.com/books?id=FQtdsLaPe3AC&pg=PA93&lpg=PP1&output=html>;.

In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Bob Puffer -
I respectfully reiterate my original statement... to encourage those who govern Moodle to look SERIOUSLY at the effect the current state of the gradebook has on overall acceptance of Moodle as a usable LMS platform -- step out of the typical methodology for handling problems piece-meal and construct a strategy for repairing what, for most, is severely broken. Marc, your comments are obviously well-thought through and, given the time I'd likely read some of the references you provide. However -- my request is basic and I'd like to keep it basic. Connault? Anderson? Anybody watching over the gradebook interested in responding or, better yet, taking action. I'd feel privileged to lend whatever help I can.
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Nicolas Connault -
Bob, Marc and many other disgruntled Moodle users, I've been following every post in the gradebook saga, and I'm just as frustrated as you are, maybe even more ;) As you have seem to have perceptively outlined, the problems are not due to sloppy coding but to the lack of a vital ingredient: QA testing prior to release. What was also lacking was a competent person in charge of user interface testing. Mmh, I wonder if Jakob Nielsen is looking for a job smile

Now, to say that the gradebook is broken isn't quite fair, but it sure misses the mark for many end users, and that needs correcting. It's also not the single most important aspect of Moodle, I'm sure you'd agree with that too. However I am devoting most of my Moodle work time to it, and you can see some of the results on the moodle test server. (user: admin, password: testm00dle).

Discussing what went wrong in the development process was useful at one point, but now I think we should focus on the key issues, such as are addressed by Robert Russo in his replacement gradebook, or in the tracker with issues like MDL-16913. Your help in testing the fixes and improvements is vital and I thank those who are already actively providing feedback.
In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by A. T. Wyatt -
Greetings, Nicolas!

Please do not consider us "disgruntled" moodle users. I think that term (at least to me) is far more negative than need be. I think we are frustrated Moodle users, true! But we are all moodle supporters and would like to find a good way to get you the information that you need to make the gradebook easier to use for the majority of the faculty members we work with.

It is quite hard to test anything, at least in my environment (small university, small faculty). We don't have an unused server to put moodle on, which means that any testing is very hit and miss as it has to be done by an individual with a windows install. I could do that, but I wasn't even sure what I was looking at half the time! And I might not have been able to describe what I thought my problems were without a whole lot more background knowledge than I had.

Maybe we will all be in a better position to help you with usability testing with respect to moodle 2.0. I/We have a much better idea of what is and should be now. I would find this information helpful:

1) Is it accurate to say that any major changes with respect to usability will take place in the 2.0 gradebook? Therefore, we should be testing 2.0??

2) Is it of any value to come up with common use cases so that we can use those as a framework for testing and possibly have some kind of template/wizard for people using those very common gradebook setups?

3) Is there any value in discussing what portion of grading comes from assignment/quiz and what comes from gradebook? I am finding the line to be blurred now, and sometimes I think that we have gotten the workflow a bit convoluted. On the other hand, if the goal is to have people be able to grade mostly in the assignment interface or mostly in the gradebook interface, then that changes one's perspective on what features should be included where.

4) Do you have (or want) any pre-existing groups that you can harness to do some fact-finding, or do you want to just gather info from the moodle community? (I think that Bob Puffer's group would be an excellent place to start, and if we can get some survey monkey data collection instruments up it might be helpful. Not that it would stand up as a real study, but it would at least capture some illuminating data.)

I think we all stand ready to help, but are rather "at sea" when it comes to how. We would welcome your thoughts on this issue. (or anybody else's, at that!)

atw
In reply to A. T. Wyatt

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Tim Hunt -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Peer reviewers Picture of Plugin developers
1. Yes, this is changing for Moodle 2.0, so that is where attention should be focussed.

2. A list of use cases is very helpful. Particularly if it is prioritised (teachers need to do this thing all the time; this other thing has to be possible, because it is sometimes needed, but it is not very common, etc.) Of course, priorities will be different for different people.

The other thing that is useful is to try to characterise who the target users are, as I tried to do here: Development:Roles_administration_improvements_for_Moodle_2.0#Who_are_are_target_users_anyway.3F

3. This is currently subject to debate.

4. It is certainly an issue that a lot of the Moodle core developers now work in development teams, without day-to-day contact with teachers or students. When thinking about how to do things, it means you are just guessing about whether it will be comprehensible to 'typical teachers'. Just about the only avenue available is to try posting a description either here, or on Moodle docs, and asking for comments. But normally that mostly gets you comments from other developers, admins and Moodle enthusiast teachers. It does not get you comment from 'ordinary teachers'.

The one case I know where proper usability work was done before making a change to Moodle was Olli Savolainen's work on the quiz editing interface. That was a Finnish summer of code project. If you skim-read Olli's blog you can get a picture of what was done: http://www.pilpi.net/software/moodle_quiz_ui/page/3/
In reply to A. T. Wyatt

Re: Moodle Gradebook common use cases

by Helen Foster -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators
Hi atw,

It would be great if you, and lots of other people, could help in coming up with common gradebook use cases. I've made a start on it here: Development:Gradebook use cases.
In reply to Helen Foster

Re: Moodle Gradebook common use cases

by Marc Grober -
Helen,

I mentioned this to you some weeks ago:
http://docs.moodle.org/en/experimental:_gb_tutoring

As well as the confusion over the Development: topic....
In reply to Marc Grober

Re: Gradebook uses

by Helen Foster -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers Picture of Translators
Marc, thanks for the link.

I realise that the phrase 'use cases' can mean different things, so I've renamed the page in Moodle Docs and have removed the Development prefix: Gradebook uses.
In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Bob Puffer -
I really don't want to get caught up in wordplay (i.e., "broken" or "unusable"). I also don't want to offend anyone. I do want to bring attention to what IMO is a set of inevitable and likely very disruptive eventualities:
  1. The current gradebook is not easy enough to understand for most instructors so they won't use it.
  2. Many of those same instructors deride Moodle, in general for the failure of its gradebook.
  3. (IMO) Moodle 2.0 will not be implementable by Fall Term 2009. Because changing major versions mid-year is wholly unacceptable, gradebook relief from a new Moodle version will not come about (for my school or others of which I'm aware) until Fall, 2010.
So... what to do?
LSU's simple gradebook largely (but not wholly) relies on GB's report plugin capability. The patches that ARE required have been minimalized. I call on this group to join with LSU as a community to provide a viable alternative to waiting until Sept, 2010 for meeting most of their gradebook needs through Moodle.
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Hi Bob,

Yes, new plugins are exactly the approach I have always wanted to see.

The default 'grader' report interface was always meant to be the interface that implemented every single feature (almost as a demo), but such an approach ws never going to provide the best interface for every single primary, secondary and tertiary institution out there.

The trouble is that gradebook features are not obvious and not universal. People seem to have very personal and sometimes quite complex workflows when it comes to grading. This opinion comes from posts saying "most teachers want X and Y" and then getting contradicted by someone in a different type of institution. It's also clear that the many Windows-based gradebooks out there vary greatly in what they do and how they work (and that's without even having to integrate with an LMS). The whole gradebook infrastructure was designed around a pluggable report concept precisely to provide the flexibility we need to address all this.

We can add new plugins into Moodle core at any time, if they are developed, and I hope to see more (there's not been much yet). Nicolas is currently reviewing the LSU work for example.

That said, the default 'grader' interface can obviously still use a lot of improvement which is why it's a task on the 2.0 roadmap and Helen and Nicolas are tasked with gathering feedback (please see these):

Request for votes on 1.9 gradebook issues

New Gradebook interface

Even though this is earmarked 2.0 we will port a lot back to 1.9 once it's tested so that mid-year upgrades are more possible for production sites.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Bob Puffer -
Martin,
Thanks for chiming in. The link to the Request for votes on 1.9 gradebook issues is a must read for anybody using GB 1.9. I've had the New Gradebook Interface in testing for quite a while and honestly am disappointed -- it actually seems to clutter more than clarify and has mechanical problems affecting its reliability.

Best news is my first time hearing someone from HQ is working with LSU and that changes will be backported to 1.9x.

I'm wondering if we can have another look at conglomerating gradebook UI issues into one tracker item? There are several issues I don't find in the tracker (so I'm going to add) but I, (like many others) always fear they will be lost in the tidal wave of currently unresolved issues (once-over of GB issues filed in last six months indicates 80% still unresolved).
In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Michael Penney -
Just as a suggestion from a project management perspective, the best place to have UI design work is before any substantial coding has been done. Having the UI work start during the QA process is..not such a great time as much of the underlying code has been done & if usability testing reveals major UI changes or features that should be dropped, well, after the UI and features have been built is not such a good time to find this out.

One thing we do in my development shop is prototype UI as much as we can (before starting to write code), either with mockup screens or sometimes fully interactive prototypes built with html/javascript, as well as with UI flow charts and diagrams (UML diagrams can even serve as points to walk through for sophisticated audiences). Even paper prototypes are better than nonesmile. Most of our clients do not look over our shoulder during development the way faculty & students used to at Humboldt State when the 1.5 gradebook was being worked on therewink, however we still find ways to show users as much as we can (and as much as their budget allows us tosmile of the interfaces we are developing.

Jakob Nielsen may not (or may be) be available or affordable, however I do suggest that usability work is worth doing and that there are shops set up to do it. In addition to our own efforts in this area, CalState has a unit called CUDA, where both formal usability and accessibility testing is done and they may be able to work with outside groups as well.
http://www.csulb.edu/centers/cuda/about_usability/





In reply to Michael Penney

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Nicolas Connault -
Most people seem to forget or be unaware that UI prototypes were created early in the development process, posted on the moodle test site and "using moodle" forums, and that feedback was obtained from them (See this discussion). We didn't quite go blindly, blissfully ignorant of the end users' preferences and needs ;)
In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Rob Monk -

Bob has developed a great list of UI suggestions.

I have the unenviable job of moving a team of staff in a K-12 environment from an electronic gradebook called MarkbookCY to Moodle 1.9. Moodle is awsome as a LMS but the gradebook is crap.

MarkbookCY has a sensational user interface. It is quick and simple yet very powerful but it us just a gradebook not a LMS like Moodle.

Please developers like Nicolas, can you download MarkbookCY and set up a class using categories and weightings and learn from the user interface. It is simple.  It does what my teachers want in a way that is intuative.

In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Nicolas Connault -
My apologies, the username for the test server is not admin but

teacher

And the password is still

testm00dle
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Marc Grober -
Thanks Bob and Nicolas - its nice to know that one's posts are read ;=}

I agree that we need some practical attention to the GB, and I think docs thata AT has been working on trying to look at various "cases" offers some possible avenues as far as suggesting an abstraction layer that would provide various simplified GB templates, but this requires that the cases to be identified all work (there are some actual bugs in the new GB) and that the development of GB for Moodle 2 be open to such extension.

Does that mean that I think we should abandon the concern over the underlying "pathologies" or that the current Moodle GB is the best option? No and no, However, I think Moodle needs a sound and usable core gradebook, and I do not see Moodle Dev abandoning the current GB. Moreover, I think a competing non-core GB at this juncture (even if we were to assume it was 100 times better than the current module) could be more devastating to Moodle than the roll out of the current GB (which I think has left a rather bad taste in quite a few mouths, and will continue to do so as more people upgrade to versions that include the new GB.)

As to QA etc, while I have suggested some changes in QA etc to Anthony over the past 6 months and have discussed such matters in the fora as well, I continue to fret that as attention moves from strategic to tactical concerns, the pressure for strategic changes passes (one need only consider the press for petroleum alternatives and the price of oil to see what I mean.....)

Unfortunately, for most teachers, instruction eventually comes down to having to issue a grade, and if Moodle is going to be THE LMS of the 21st Century (or some approximation thereof) it MUST have a gradebook that is usable by a teacher, and the usability expected can be seen in EGP, Micrograde, etc.

I do appreciate the fact that GB is now hugely powerful. Unfortunately, it is also in some respects imponderable and unwieldy and that makes it practically speaking, unusable.

Curving, extra credit, etc are all part of the typical teacher's daily grind, and I think GB "templates" that addressed typical gradebook "cases" with a gui selector that would take care of the set up would be a very welcome major step forward.

I think a comprehensive migration from old GBs to the current GB in a course in a Moodle upgrading is critical..... just think of al the folks who essentially lost their gradebooks mid term because of some upgrade midterm.....

And i think addressing tactical issues must be done strategically - what was it that Seeger was alway repeating.... think globally and act locally (or was it the other way around - LOL)
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Brian Pool -
Bob...I am totally with you. I am an avid Moodle supporter in the K-12 Environment and routinely give administrator courses in Ohio. I have not been able to recommend the 1.9 upgrade (we are on 1.87+) based solely on the new gradebook. We have a modified GBPV2 environment which our faculty is basically pleased with. There are still a few tweaks that need to be implemented...but I feel 1.9 is still a step backwards for an operational environment.

It needs a large number of fixes, which you addressed some of. There are additional concerns in the K-12 environment that make the gradebook even worse for us. The fact that we have 4 grading periods that have to remain separated, and then further categories inside them, makes 1.9 unmanageable. Currently we just hide the off quarter and it is gone. It isn't perfect, but is is better than 1.9.

I should probably work and entire list of K-12 concerns into a single post. Until things get better, I will continue to suggest 1.87+ instead of 1.9.

Brian
In reply to Brian Pool

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Martin Dougiamas -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Documentation writers Picture of Moodle HQ Picture of Particularly helpful Moodlers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Brian, about the 4 grading periods ... that's exactly what the categories are for. Can't you just create 4 categories to group your items and then switch them on/off as needed? Categories can even contain sub-categories.
In reply to Martin Dougiamas

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Brian Pool -
We do create categories for the quarters and the actual categories inside them. Ie 1-tests, 1-homework, 1-labs, 2-tests , 2-homework, 2-labs... In my A+ hardware class there are 20 categories (5 per quarter.) Teachers hide the categories for the off quarters and only see those that apply (in our version of 1.8) which keeps the gradebook relatively clean. The one thing they still want is to keep the student names showing as categories get wider/fuller.

In 1.9 (the last time I tested) it only greys them out if they are hidden. They still show and even if they are collapsed...20 collapsed categories is ugly and way too wide.

Not to mention that the assigning and moving of categories and assignments in 1.9 is very clunky and slow...more flixible perhaps...but clunky.

I know that many manhours were spent on 1.9...I just think the gradebook looks like a nightmare for my novice users. In the K-12 environment (I won't speak for collegiate levels) we have many novice users. I have to present a more usable, and simpler, version to change and get user buyin. At my last visit...1.9 was definetly not that.

Brian


In reply to Brian Pool

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Nicolas Connault -
Maybe you ought to visit the test.moodle.org site then, and play around with the gradebook. The improvements there have been up and running for several months now, and we are not getting much feedback despite the wide publicity we have given them.

Regarding hiding, you are hitting an important point: you want to hide the columns in order to have a clearer view of the gradebook, and make it easier to organise your grades. However, there is another type of hiding which is needed: hiding certain columns from the students. The second type of hiding is the one implemented in 1.9, because it is the most important of the two. If we were to put in two types of hiding at the same time, I believe it would confuse people even more.

Got any ideas?
In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Brian Pool -
I am not sure why I would hide items from the student, and certainly would disagree that it is more important. If it is part of the grade...it is should be visible...if it is not...hidden. It is more important to a teacher to have a usable gradebook than to have unneeded or optional functionality.

I will try and set aside to do a review of the gradebook changes. My last test was two months ago...maybe enough changes have been implemented to make it "teacher friendly."

Brian

In reply to Brian Pool

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Nicolas Connault -
The purpose is not to hide the item from the student, but to hide the item's grades from the student. This is one of the most commonly requested features, I'm sure you'll see how useful it is. For example, you may not want some of your students to see their grades until you have graded everyone's assignments, since some other students may not even have finished their assignment.
In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by gary comstock -
No opinion about which is the more important, but I'm definitely putting in my vote for the function allowing teachers to hide columns. All of my students have completed the first 6 assignments. But I have 20 grade columns, and must scroll over all of these filled columns now in order to get to columns 7 and higher. It'd be very helpful to be able to collapse columns 1-6 so that column 7 now appearswhere column 1 used to be so I can fill in the numbers.
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Mark Pearson -
Bob,

I'm with ATW here -- we need to suss out the Tracker situation with regard to the Gradebook and then try there. Problem is that the way things work in the Tracker you get a heap of bugs , improvements and feature requests that can add rather than reduce complexity of the gradebook with no easy way to sort them out. My gut feeling is that rather than a laundry list of changes which compete with or contradict other requests what we need is a staged improvement that looks at a teacher's workflow and then figures out how the gradebook can be modified to fit this better. Maybe a comparison with ATW's GBv2 would help. Perhaps the LSU mods are the place to start since they have also fixed many bugs and made the whole thing simpler. It would certainly be helpful to know the intentions of the core coders and where the Gradebook issue lies in their list of priorities.

I can't help thinking that some input from Instructional Design professionals might help. Certainly I think that some sort of wizzard that takes a teacher through the basics of configuring the gradebook for her course would be useful.
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Marc Grober -
Amazingly enough I have been talking with anthony burrows about similar concerns for some months, and the experimental doc pages that AT has been working on I think point in the correct direction.....

BUT

what is the underlying "pathology"?

One might argue that there is a moodle development orthodoxy that favors some sources/styles over others and favors feature sets over usability. Does code from some sources get more attention from code from other sources? I think that the likely answer is yes and your experience I think confirms that of a number of persons. Is the new grade book usable? I think I would have to suggest that it has been a disaster for Most, and that the deployment of the new GB without appropriate ability to maintain the pre-existing usability was a QA failure of the highest order. What I think has come out of the effort to create "cases", i.e. sets of criteria for specific types of GB usage, is that GB needed to wait until at least Moodle 2.0 and should have gone through an extensive QA review alongside other options such that the end user would have found GB easier to use (not more difficult), existing gradebooks would have all worked under the upgraded GB, and anyone using any of the archetypical "cases" would have been able to continue to use GB as they had (despite the arguablyn loads of improvements to the new GB)

So, one might conclude that, this being an alleged enlightened dictatorship, that all fault rests with Martin, but that might be just a tad bit unfair.... on the other hand, "buona incudine non tema martello", a good anvil does not fear the hammer... I think the moodle community is the anvil here, and as a community we have to be more outspoken as far as development work. Of course, one would argue that ease of exploration of development work is the issue and I think that is where we need to focus our energy.... increasing end user access to Moodle development.....

In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Kelly E. Duell, M.A., NBCT -

I also agree with all this and would like to add that it would be more than awesome if there could be some type of mark in the gradebook which shows when an assignment is waiting to be graded.  Other virtual programs have this function, which really helps.  Right now I have to open each assignment to see if there is a new submission to grade.  I do use the email instructor option, but it does not always work-many times there is an assignment waiting for me to grade but I never received the email.

The other item that would be great is making the verticle columns more narrow.  I used the code that I found in the forums to make the gradebook titles verticle, which makes the spacing smaller, but I can't change the width of the columns.  I would also like to extend the title cells so I can see the entire title; right now I get the assig... look.

The last feature I would like is a way to click on the student's name and have all their assignments in the gradebook listed so I can grade one student's work all at one time.  Again, another feature other virtual gradebooks offer which saves a lot of time.

Thank you for working on the gradebook, I really appreciate it!

In reply to Kelly E. Duell, M.A., NBCT

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Brian Pool -
Check out the mods...there are two that provide this capability for the teacher very easily. I have them both on our site (teachers choose whichever they like)

Marking Block, Notgraded block, and Ungraded Assignments Block.

Brian

PS Ungraded Assignments Mod we are not using yet...
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Dennis Williams -
I agree in full with all the suggestions. At my place, I think that the damage may be done. Folks encountering frustrations were saying at end of semester that they would be converting to Micrograde, excel, or plain old paper grades and not using the gradebook for Spring. The cost of frustration for them is just too great. This is unfortunate b/c moodle had been generally accepted as an lms but gradebook frustration has caused it to be widely disparaged. Whereas I take the time time "figure it out" when stumped and try to keep things simple by using total number of points and weighting grades pre-gradebook by setting the right number of points in the syllabus, many faculty don't and just want the thing to work. I know moodle does not read minds.

I wonder if is is possible to easily create a switchable gradebook... a default Simple Gradebook interface (like the LSU one is purported to be) that could be switched to a Sophisticated Gradebook interface by those who want full editability.

Some suggestions for the Simple Interface:

1) Create some categories in which every assignment is assumed to have an equal point value and the assignment scores are averaged to get a category score. The created categories feature is accessed by a button (labeled "Set Up Categories for Assignments") on 1st page of gradebook when editing is on. The details of these settings can be changed in the Sophisticated Gradebook Interface, or by clicking on the Advanced button.

2) be able to set the weight of the category as a percent that then is calculated at the end as a final score. This is done in the menu resulting from clicking the "Set Up Categories" buttton above, but is also a visible, editable box beside the category heading row in the gradebook when editing in on once categories are created.

(btw, is this what aggregation coefficient means, I don't know, can't quite discern that from the help description, don't want to fiddle with it and mess up my gradebook in the process...which brings up an issue with the tone of gradebook help features)

3) be able to easily create an extra credit assignment that adds percentage points to total percent in the course. This might be an visible feature (check box) that creates such a category in menu for # 1 above.

Additionally, it would be nice to be able to go into the gradebook, click on the students name in the gradebook, and see the user report of the student for use when discussing grades with a student. This helps a lot with student privacy, both in terms of justice and fairness to other students and with living in the spirit of FERPA requirements.

Not being a programmer, I can't really thow in and help implement this, but I do believe that this is one of those issues on which Moodle could rise or fall. Given the number of and ferocity of complaints at my institution and in the forums, I think this may well be a mission critical issue.

Alternately, perhaps Chariot Software should develop an API for their Micrograde software to interface with Moodle's gradebook....

DW
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Edward Burke -
I whole-heartedly support the discussions and suggestions for improvement running here. My institution switched from Bb this fall to Moodle 1.9 and the ONLY consistant complaint I have heard is with the gradebook.  Every argument presented in this forum is echoed at my institution.  The GB feature is CORE to our use of any LMS.  Students here depend on the GB for their grades, and the faculty demand that the GB be accurate for their own integrity.  As you all know,it's not easy supporting a product with sooooo many flaws.   I agree that a better GB is mission critical to Moodle and now that we are beginning our spring semester we will not be implementing any new tweaks to our Moodle package until summer, meaning another semester of frustrations.  I'm also not a programmer, so I cannot jump in and create a new GB for our users. I would, however, be willing to work in any "sandbox" to beta test a new GB should something be in development.  This is not meant to be critical of Moodle...we LOVE it, but we are all looking to help out in any way to correct this situation.  And while we are on the subject of the GB, there should be a way to print from the GB...or maybe there is, & I've just missed it.  just my 2 cents
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Anthony Borrow -
Picture of Core developers Picture of Plugin developers Picture of Testers
Bob and others who have responded - First and foremost, thanks for starting (and for others for their participation in) this discussion. I believe it is important that we identify the areas where Moodle needs to improve and the user interface of the gradebook is one where there is good opportunity for improvement. As Bob mentioned from a functionality/capability perspective which was what the developers were focused on when designing the 1.9 gradebook it seems to work pretty nicely. Cleaning up the user interface is our next hurdle. As with all things in Moodle, we can do this as a community. It is important to identify what the issues are and to add them to the tracker, discuss them on the forums and encourage folks to comment and vote for them. I am grateful to see the interest and feedback because I believe even criticism (sometimes especially criticism) is an important way of contributing to the community. One of the fundamental differences between open source and proprietary software is that the users have a much more significant role. So please continue to discuss, propose ideas, complain, create issues in the tracker, vote, etc. These voices will help to push Moodle's development in a positive direction. I am getting ready to head to Nepal for a three week course on Buddhism and thus will not be around; however, I will return around February and will make a point to follow up on this discussion thread to see what tracker issues have been generated. Please do not hesitate to let me know if there is anything I can do to be of help. Peace - Anthony
In reply to Anthony Borrow

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by A. T. Wyatt -
There is some good information in the tracker re the category assignments screen--very busy in the last few days.

http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-15680

You might put a watch on it to stay informed of developments.

atw
In reply to A. T. Wyatt

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Nicolas Connault -
Thanks A. T. Wyatt, it would be fantastic if more users could join in and test these improvements. The interface progresses only as fast as I receive feedback.
In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Lesli Smith -
Thanks so much for giving us access to the test site gradebook so that we can see it in real time. I would attach a short doc that details some of the issues that came up for me as I went from 1.8 to 1.9 and tried to take in all of the gradebook changes, but apparently it is too big to upload here. (424 kb because I used ppt as my template; don't lecture me on my choice of application, please.) May I send it to you instead?
In reply to Lesli Smith

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Nicolas Connault -
Yes please, send it to nicolasconnault@gmail.com
In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Lesli Smith -

Thanks, both of you. While you were posting, I figured out how to save it as htm. Please don't laugh--I've only done it that way a couple of times now, but that seems to make it a manageable size. My IT team will be so proud! They've been after me for a while to learn how to make my file sizes smaller. wink

For our communications purposes here, I think this htm format should work fine, but I'll email the pdf to you, too, if I have more trouble.

That Google Docs option looks amazing, too. If I have a presentation or doc that I need to use and re-use (ie. one that is less conversation-specific and more curricular) I'll definitely have to check it out. Thanks again.
In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Lesli Smith -
Hi, Nicolas. I hope the pics and doc helped--though I was in such a hurry I regret that I didn't take time to express my opinions a little more diplomatically. My son is two, and so we've watched the movie Ratatouillie a few times in the past month. As the critic in that movie admits, it's easy to be a critic, right? Anyway, for the record, I also want to say this: In my opinion, the 1.9 gradebook has amazing flexibility and overall functionality improvements. Really mind-boggling flexibility, actually, which might be a part of the problem. As I've already admitted in my short pres, no one with my limited mathematical abilities should be given the option of weighting her categories in so many different ways. But that's just me--others should have that ability, and I love that it is available for those who would be able to use it well.

As Elena Ivanova has more eloquently expressed in a different thread, the way the categories are laid out when you want to edit them and the way they appear when put in the gradebook grader report keeps people from recognizing the improvements in the underlying functionalities. I am really encouraged by what I see in the test gradebook, though. Good work going on in the Moodle community, there. Thanks to everyone working on this. Your work is very much appreciated!
In reply to Lesli Smith

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Nicolas Connault -
Hi Lesli, and thanks for the encouragement! Maybe you can look at the flexibility problem from a different point of view (ours, in this case): one of the main reasons for the gradebook rewrite was to accommodate for the very diverse requests we were getting from people in all different kinds of organisations. Our aim was not so much to make the gradebook hyper-flexible and complex, but to cover the needs of many. The flexibility is a good result of this effort, while the complexity is an undesirable companion to it.

I hope this helps a bit to understand the issue smile
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Nicolas Connault -
You'll be pleased to know that the LSU gradebook is being considered for inclusion in 1.9.4, merging it with other work in progress already for testing on test.moodle.org. The tracker issue is MDL-17807 and you should subscribe to it if you want to keep up with the changes and participate in testing and bug-fixing. Thanks to Robert for the hard work on this great contribution.
In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Elena Ivanova -
That's is nice!

btw: I love the fact that moodle has this live test instance available. Makes it so much easier for non-programmers smile
Is it ok for me to create my own course site there quickly? I want to import some real-case scenarios, if it's ok..
In reply to Elena Ivanova

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Nicolas Connault -
Elena, we really want to avoid any privacy issues with real data, and we also would rather not have the test server get too crowded. What you could do is set up a similar course on the test server, without importing real data. You can create assignments, assign students and organise grade categories and items. Please let me know if you need help doing that.
In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Elena Ivanova -
Ops, sorry. Yes, I did not mean to import real data, I just wanted to create a real-case scenario from scratch.
If you can give me a blank site there - it will be terrific. Thank you!
In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Bryce Bernard -
Nicolas,

Thank you for considering the inclusion of some of the LSU changes in the core.

Smart Move.
In reply to Nicolas Connault

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Deb Burdick-Hinton -
I looked at the tracker but was uncertain whether this had been implemented. we are planning to upgrade to 1.9.4 soon (because of lesson grading and gradebook problems) not quite sure where this is at or if it has been scraped?
In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Barbara Taylor -

I stumbled across this post today and am wondering when things will be implemented that Bob originally posted about.  The usability of the grade book still isn't easy.  Things get overridden without explanation and takes a lot of time to manually edit.  Curving is needed.  The multiplier doesn't work as one would expect.  Creating multiple grade items at once would be a bonus.  Changing it from "grade item" to "grade column" would be clearer. 

We are on 2.5 hoping that soon the grade book is changed.  Is there any movement in that direction?

In reply to Barbara Taylor

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Bob Puffer -

I don't really hold out much hope for significant changes to the gradebook.  The critical factor in making that happen would have been to first begin simplifying it (lot of people are afraid to touch it because of the complexity of the code) and then work on getting features to work as they should and then add additional features, hopefully without adding complexity.  There've been a couple of things that have took place, i.e., most notably AJAX editing of grades but not enough so I would want to subject my faculty to using it.  

I wrote my own grader report about four years ago (a little after all these postings) and we've been using it since.  A lot of other schools all over the world have contacted me and are also using it.  It is in general release in the plugins and is called the LAE Grader (because it was once packaged with CLAMP's LAE version of Moodle).  

I've found that it isn't enough to just handle the grader report but also need to deal with the User report and the Categories and items screen.  A lot of the changes I made to the User report have since been incorporated into the core User report (extra columns).  However, the fundamental flaw of the Grader report (assuming all assignments and quizzes will be worth 100 points so 'Real' grade becomes the same as 'Percentage') naturally extends to the user report and the categories and items screen.  There is also a problem accurately calculating SWM across multiple categories containing unequal total points unless you manually change the category total points, which, as you likely know is a rabbit hole because you have to continually change it until your gradebook is entirely set in stone (which few teachers accomplish before the end of the term).  Sum of grades would be useful but it doesn't exclude ungraded items from the calculation and a serious attempt on my part to make that happen end in fruitless labor.

So... the result is a general release of the LAE Grader report (which includes an Export to Excel button which sends usable information) and private versions of the User report and Categories and Items screen.  I'm currently working the Cats and items to allow easy change of grade display type because that is such an awful mess when an instructor wants to see different calculations for items vs. categories.

You are welcome to any or all parts of this work.  LAE Grader is in the plugins and also on my github -- I keep both up-to-date.  I can send you copies of the relevant files for the changes I've made to Categories and items and the User report (one file in each case), if you want.

In reply to Bob Puffer

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Verta Midcalf -

PLEASE DO SEND. mY EMAIL ADDRESS IS: vertamidcalf@sbcglobal.net. I am trying to get my calc to work for decimals. That is all that is wrong. The grader picks up the last dq entered and puts that grade out there. That is incorrect as it needs to be an average of the 2 dq grades. I see a formula; I am going to try it. Sum ([1],[2]). I will try this and see if it works. If I can find where to do the calculation average in accord with the instructions. Will keep you posted. Verta 

In reply to Verta Midcalf

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Verta Midcalf -

Can't find where to do the calcs. This system is very confusing to me. It would be nice if a free class were offered to help us with the system. A 2 - 3 day class helping us to navigate and make changes if necessary to the system. Thanks. Verta

In reply to Verta Midcalf

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Bob Puffer -

Calcs are most easily done from the Categories and items page, clicking the 'Calculation' icon to the right of the item or category.

In reply to Verta Midcalf

Re: Moodle Gradebook "Level-Setting"

by Bob Puffer -

LAE Grader is in plugins as is LAE User report.  Both show unapproved but the LAE Grader has been approved for years.  LAE User is new but we've been using it for years.