Because things do get so twisted in the forums I thought I'd start a new thread on live search linking back to one possibility for its implementation
http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=98115&parent=434158
The intent here is to flesh out whether there are arguments against this as well as whether there is enough support for it that it is worth entering a Tracker item.... (i.e. that upon the entry of the track item there will be overwhelming demand via cast votes for implementation..... LOL)
I would be willing to flesh this out a bit in a Development: wiki page if there was a page name that would be most appropriate??
To provide some detail:
Structurally there would be a data directory (I think xml would be grand) that would be used for the look-ups. I think it would be nice to provide non-production access to the data directory for the purpose of contributing (which would presuppose a mechanism for online manipulation which would be opened to developers, PHMs, etc. as experience with the tool dictates.....). In the interim, I see something along the lines of a wiki where folks can recommend terms and doc references.
The current post feature would be altered to include the active search so that suggestions for solutions would be provided as the query is entered (and it might even more helpful to ask in this post page for the user to enter some possible key words - both for use by the live search and for indexing of the query should it actually get posted.) The post page will require a user to acknowledge that he has in fact reviewed the recommended solutions - misrepresentation on thsi matter resulting in being identified with a yahoo avatar. A separate post feature may be maintained for old farts who are just being chatty (not to say that I know of anyone indictable on such an offense) or are providing responses to queries and don't need the look-up.
PHMs as part of the extension of membership requirements will not only be required to amend the docs no less than thrice a month, but must contribute to the data directory project at least once a month. Talk about your social engineering....
Hi Marc,
I think this is a great idea for improving the findability of information in the forums and Moodle Docs.
IMO improving the forum search in any way is much desired. (I even created an issue in the Tracker, MDLSITE-664). What is the current state of this project?
Kind regards,
Frank
I think this is a great idea for improving the findability of information in the forums and Moodle Docs.
IMO improving the forum search in any way is much desired. (I even created an issue in the Tracker, MDLSITE-664). What is the current state of this project?
Kind regards,
Frank
Sorry Frank but I missed your post....
Bottom line is that for some kind of active search to be useful it would have to be integrated into Moodle.org and the response the idea has had (I've run it up the flagpole a couple of times now) has been underwhelming... in fact some expressed opposition..... So, while the various URLS for code/ideas are still in the forum, I am not actively pursuing it, though I have a project workspace some where on it.... LOL
Bottom line is that for some kind of active search to be useful it would have to be integrated into Moodle.org and the response the idea has had (I've run it up the flagpole a couple of times now) has been underwhelming... in fact some expressed opposition..... So, while the various URLS for code/ideas are still in the forum, I am not actively pursuing it, though I have a project workspace some where on it.... LOL
Thanks for your reply, Marc. So we're on our own in our quest for better search capabilities in the Moodle forums...
My personal workaround is using Firefox search plugins for more targeted searches (http://mycroft.mozdev.org/search-engines.html?name=moodle). Those could easily be incorporated on moodle.org (see MDLSITE-644).
Cheers,
Frank
My personal workaround is using Firefox search plugins for more targeted searches (http://mycroft.mozdev.org/search-engines.html?name=moodle). Those could easily be incorporated on moodle.org (see MDLSITE-644).
Cheers,
Frank
Well, if someone can get some noise going something might change, but I didn;t see any real interest from developers in pursuing this...... Couple of problems with just search plugins:
- Getting users to search first - You know how often a user will ask a question before they have looked at all. Beauty of the tool I was suggesting is that it essentially force the search, thereby arguably short circuiting needless forum postings on questions for which answers appear in the docs
- Appropriate search results (often results to narrow or to broad to0 be useful) - docs are poorly searched except by title, and users are most likely to get inserted into the middle of some forum discussion in which they don;t belong. An active search allows US to build a directory based on the user's most likely needs as seen from search terms. Also will ensure that user sees appropriate doc materials
- While plugins may be a nice shortcut for those the more sophisticated, for those most likely to be searching for answers ( new users ) I don't think it offers a solution (nor relief for those here who doggedly answer the same questions daily.
Note that we do have a search box (powered by Google) at the top of every page on moodle.org ... it's actually pretty good and searches docs, forums and tracker.
I'm not opposed to a knowledge-base search (of Moodle Docs) in the forums here to try and prevent some people posting (by directing them to related pages in the docs first). It's a good idea in principle.
It's just not cheap to implement.
Firstly we'd have to hack Moodle forums with extra AJAX or an extra step in posting (between submit and post). And we'd have to develop some sort of API for MediaWiki for this code to talk to, and we'd have to implement all kinds of relevance algorithms to make it anywhere near effective.
Secondly we'd have to maintain this hack over time and make sure we had enough hardware resources to support the constant searches every time someone wanted to post here.
Right now we're already pretty short-staffed just working on Moodle 2.0 and 1.9.x so this sort of thing is kinda low on our priority list, especially since we have a global site search already ...
I'm not opposed to a knowledge-base search (of Moodle Docs) in the forums here to try and prevent some people posting (by directing them to related pages in the docs first). It's a good idea in principle.
It's just not cheap to implement.
Firstly we'd have to hack Moodle forums with extra AJAX or an extra step in posting (between submit and post). And we'd have to develop some sort of API for MediaWiki for this code to talk to, and we'd have to implement all kinds of relevance algorithms to make it anywhere near effective.
Secondly we'd have to maintain this hack over time and make sure we had enough hardware resources to support the constant searches every time someone wanted to post here.
Right now we're already pretty short-staffed just working on Moodle 2.0 and 1.9.x so this sort of thing is kinda low on our priority list, especially since we have a global site search already ...
Just some thoughts off the top of my head:
1) Couldn't Moodle's auto-linking and glossary feature be used to direct people to relevant Moodle Docs, e.g for such general keywords as "theme", "JavaScript", "CSS" and the like?
2) These could be provided as links at the bottom at the initial posting like "You might find the answer to your question at CSS FAQ."
3) To minimize server load this could be done using a regularly updated static index which maps keywords to Moodle Docs pages.
4) I stumbled across this Drupal module for advanced search functionality the other day(Faceted Search, http://drupalmodules.com/module/faceted-search). Maybe one could borrow some ideas from there.
1) Couldn't Moodle's auto-linking and glossary feature be used to direct people to relevant Moodle Docs, e.g for such general keywords as "theme", "JavaScript", "CSS" and the like?
2) These could be provided as links at the bottom at the initial posting like "You might find the answer to your question at CSS FAQ."
3) To minimize server load this could be done using a regularly updated static index which maps keywords to Moodle Docs pages.
4) I stumbled across this Drupal module for advanced search functionality the other day(Faceted Search, http://drupalmodules.com/module/faceted-search). Maybe one could borrow some ideas from there.
Well, I described some months ago some of the issues with the current search features (such as not searching beyond doc titles etc.) but that is not at the core of the argument....
While I agree that activesearch would require some coding, I don't think it would be quite as pricey as you argue Martin..... Perhaps the diff is that I am thinking of something much less sophisticated. Yes, I would link the current Add a New Discussion button to the ajax for the active search, but only provide access to the actual submission form after the activesearch process had been completed. The activesearch would be external to mediawiki so no API issues. The db would have to be created - trained if you will, which would require a bit of work and would be subject to modification over time as pages moved, were added etc. but I am talking about a human engineered index, not a machine engineered index.
While I agree that activesearch would require some coding, I don't think it would be quite as pricey as you argue Martin..... Perhaps the diff is that I am thinking of something much less sophisticated. Yes, I would link the current Add a New Discussion button to the ajax for the active search, but only provide access to the actual submission form after the activesearch process had been completed. The activesearch would be external to mediawiki so no API issues. The db would have to be created - trained if you will, which would require a bit of work and would be subject to modification over time as pages moved, were added etc. but I am talking about a human engineered index, not a machine engineered index.